Tuesday, June 14, 2005

History's Rhyme

For the past two years, some defenders of the war in Iraq have ridiculed any comparisons to Vietnam. Their "argument" is usually a derisive cackle along the lines of "if you're going to compare this to Vietnam, then it's not even worth discussing!" I've found that those who take refuge in this sort of tactic---particularly some of the popular "we decide, you listen" conservative blogs---often fear losing the war of facts and ideas, so they prefer not to enter the fray in the first place.

History never repeats exactly; if it did, we'd be smart enough to avoid the types of mistakes that get millions of people killed. As Mark Twain noted, "History doesn't repeat itself; at best it sometimes rhymes." Let's examine some of those rhymes, shall we?

The following are fifteen similarities between the Vietnam War and the war in Iraq. If someone---perhaps a supporter of this war---can come up with fifteen ways in which the two conflicts differ materially, I look forward to reading your list in the comments section:

1. The justification for massive military escalation in Vietnam was based largely on a false pretense: the incident in the Gulf of Tonkin in 1964, during which the North Vietnamese allegedly attacked the USS Maddox. A year after Tonkin, President Johnson joked about the incident saying, "For all I know, our Navy was shooting at whales out there." Similarly, at the 2004 Radio and Television Correspondents' Association dinner, George Bush presented a slide show in which he jokingly looked under pieces of White House furniture for the WMD's that were never found in Iraq.

2. The Vietnam War was conceived by a supposedly elite group of thinkers and geopolitical strategists known as "the best and the brightest"---successful academic and corporate leaders who took over the most important senior posts in Washington. Another group of close-knit, supposedly elite ideologues known as "neocons" were instrumental in the planning and execution of the war in Iraq.

3. The ideological justification for the Vietnam War was "the domino theory." This postulated that if all of Vietnam went Communist, the rest of Southeast Asia and beyond would fall like dominos. After the war, former Secretary of Defense Clark Clifford said, "What we thought was the spread of Communist aggression in my opinion now seems very clearly to have been a civil war in Vietnam. The domino theory proved to be erroneous. The United States made an honest mistake." When it became clear that Tonkin was a fabrication and in 1970 Congress repealed the Tonkin Gulf Resolution that had provided authorization for the war, Nixon began using new justifications that prolonged the war for years, including his "power as Commander-in-Chief" and the need for "peace with honor." Similarly, having found no WMD's in Iraq because of an "honest intelligence mistake", the Bush administration came up with new justifications such as the importance of a "free Iraq" to the spread of democracy in the Middle East and beyond.

4. For the first five years of our military involvement in Vietnam, the war was popular with a passive, complacent, post-1950's materialistic American public. Although the public is starting to question our involvement in Iraq as revealed by recent polls, until now complacency has characterized a post-1990's culture infatuated with Paris Hilton, Donald Trump and the value of real estate.

5. There was no "front line" in Vietnam. The enemy attacked anywhere at any time, from the capital to hundreds of miles away in the jungle. There is no front line in Iraq; some troops fight insurgents in the middle of Baghdad while others fight in places like Tikrit, Fallujah, and on the border with Syria.

6. In Vietnam, the enemy's firepower was utterly inferior to ours. While we flew high above the jungle canopy and dropped napalm from modern jets, the war was won and lost in unconventional ground battles. Some of the most effective weapons were booby-traps, which caused the death and permanent injury of thousands of U.S. troops. In Iraq, the most effective insurgent weapon is the low-tech roadside IED, effective both militarily and psychologically and also the cause of crippling permanent injuries similar to those in Vietnam.

7. Year after year, our political leaders cited "Vietnamization" as an open-ended goal. As the deaths started to mount, the American public was repeatedly assured that when South Vietnamese troops had been trained in sufficient numbers and were ready to fight on their own, our troops would come home. Similarly, we're assured that just as soon as those Iraqi troops are able to "fight for their own freedom" our own troops will begin to withdraw. Of course, the "ization" goal---training indigenous forces to fight on their own---is perfect as an open-ended rationale since it is difficult to quantify or evaluate.

8. When Vietnam started going badly, desperation led to expansion of the war into Cambodia and Laos. Frustration is also leading some to call for military action in Iran and Syria.

9. To cushion reports of American deaths with the public and to create the impression of progress in Vietnam, the military began to include estimates of enemy deaths, know as the "body count." A few months ago, our military began to aggressively report the enemy body count after each operation in Iraq.

10. The public in South Vietnam, while not overtly sympathetic to the North Vietnamese or the Vietcong, nevertheless did not actively oppose them. In Iraq, the public has tentatively supported us in some areas, and actively sheltered and supported the insurgency in others.

11. During periods of relative calm in Vietnam, our political and military leaders would proclaim that we were "winning" and that the Vietcong were ready to turn in their weapons and become good citizens. In Iraq, we see the same periodic but short-lived victory laps after events like the handover of sovereignty and the elections---until the next group of car bombings, kidnappings, assassinations, or roadside IED's.

12. As the casualties increased year after year in Vietnam, defenders of the war protested that pulling out would "dishonor the sacrifice" of those troops who had already died. We're now beginning to hear that withdrawing from Iraq too early would mean those who have died would have done so in vain. Both wars have given rise to a perverse logic by which death is only valid and honorable if it's followed by more death.

13. Up to the moment in April 1975 when the last evacuation helicopter dusted off the roof of the American embassy in Saigon, that war's shameless pollyannas were still insisting the Vietcong and North Vietnamese were on the verge of defeat and did not represent the will of the "peace-loving" Vietnamese people. In Iraq, we continue to hear repeatedly that we are fighting nothing more than "dead-enders" as per Rumsfeld, and that the insurgency is "in the last throes" as Vice President Cheney claimed only one week ago.

14. During Vietnam, our press became the enemy. That war's apologists argue to this day that if only the press had not been so negative we would have won. They still regard Walter Cronkite as an American Ho Chi Minh for daring to suggest after a visit to Vietnam in 1968 that the war was a "stalemate." Today, for daring to report outrages like the prisoner abuse scandal and for making mistakes that turn out to have been not too far from the truth, the press is as much of a target of our leaders' vitriol as are the insurgents.

15. The tragedy of any war is the toll it takes on innocent civilians. Two remarkably similar pictures capture this perfectly: this one from Vietnam, and this one from Iraq. Apologists for these sorts of tragedies are fond of repeating the mantra that "these things happen during war." Indeed they do. And precisely because they do, war should always be a last resort---because when it's not, the inevitable outrages and tragedies cause the aggressor to lose the moral high ground. We didn't hear much about human rights violations American troops may have committed in Japan or Germany during World War II, did we? All wars are not the same; when in doubt, see Pyrrhus. Or Abu Ghraib.

Are there important differences between Vietnam and Iraq? You bet. And for those who might want to put together that list, I'll start you off with a few. In Saigon, American troops and civilians could almost always go anywhere in the city at any time and feel relatively safe. In Baghdad, we're confined to a fortified encampment in the center of the city, and even that is not immune from attack. And it took five years and a far higher number of casualties for the American public to even begin to sour on the Vietnam War the way it is starting to on Iraq after just two years. Yes, there are indeed some important differences between the two wars.

History is rhyming, but only for those willing to hear it.

96 Comments:

Anonymous susiecal said...

Oh my, this is a good one. The boosters of this war are not going to like this one bit I'm afraid.

6/14/2005 2:54 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good work.

6/14/2005 4:51 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

TCR

That was quite a bit of history and comparisons. I liked it. And now what?
How can we put an end to this slaughterhouse? It just does not make any more sense to be in Iraq any longer. I do not have good vibrations for the outcome.The Middle East people are a very proud people as much as their brothers in the Far East. Religion per se does not make them so. It is Patriotism. I think since we have accomplished what in fact we went in for. i.e. to remove Saddam, and that was done, there is no compelling reasons to continue to be there and lose more lives, unless there is ulterior motives that translate to - oil and military bases. I think it is time to pack up and leave.

6/14/2005 5:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

this is terrific work

that's all that needs to be said

6/14/2005 5:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

very unsettling - you nailed it right on the money.

6/14/2005 8:46 AM  
Anonymous ctbill said...

Good history and VERY good post, especially for those who forget or never knew how insane Vietnam was.

6/14/2005 9:10 AM  
Blogger owenz said...

It will be left to the next Democratic president to withdraw from Iraq...and he or she will be vilified for it...

6/14/2005 9:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To some extent, all counterinsurgencies are the same. Although we can compare Iraq to Vietnam and see some similarities, a better comparison is probably Isreal's experience in Lebanon. In that war, Israel thought to solve a regional security problem through a military invasion, which only created another security problem in addition to the one they already had. They had the same problems with warring ethnic groups, the same slow drip-drip-dripping of casualties, the same skyrocketing financial costs of maintaining an occupation.

More importantly, the IDF wasn't able to create a unified government out of the warring parties that were ripping Lebanon apart.

That's a little different from the situation in Vietnam, where client states were being used by the U.S., Russia and China as part of a wider global war.

Now, that doesn't mean our current policy or methods are right, but it's important to recognize that different forces are at work in Iraq than were present in Vietnam.

6/14/2005 9:28 AM  
Anonymous Doug said...

Support the troops. Bring them home.

6/14/2005 9:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Another insightful post...if every "conservative" was as intelligent as this
guy we wouldn't be in this mess.

6/14/2005 10:44 AM  
Blogger Lifetime Fiscal Conservative said...

In Vietnam, the enemy's firepower was utterly inferior to ours.
Here's a difference. While that is somewhat true in Iraq, the insurgents have incredible firepower due to our failure to put in enough troops to stabilize the country, and to protect the weapons caches that we found. The insurgents have a virtually unlimited supply of munitions for the foreseeable future. North Vietnam was dependent upon the Chinese to continually keep them supplied.

Similarly, we're assured that just as soon as those Iraqi troops are able to "fight for their own freedom" our own troops will begin to withdraw.
My wife's nephew is in Iraq and has been involved in the training of Iraqi troops. From what he has told us, don't hold your breath waiting for Iraqis to take over the fight. They are not particularly interested in taking on these duties. They're much more interested in getting paid.

6/14/2005 11:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good Post. It occurs to me that the current 'Domino theory' fallacy is that by establishing democracy in Iraq the rest of the mideast will tumble, apparently some lessons are never learned. Your point is well taken, war should never be entered into lightly. This one was entered into as though it was a game.

6/14/2005 12:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thoughtful and clearly written. Should we all have such command of history. Excellent!

"#9" I recall General Tommy Franks said that "we don't do body counts", and it is very noticeable that now reports do just that.

6/14/2005 1:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fantastic list and analysis. I'm particularly interested in #3. It seems fairly uncontroversial at this point to assert that a belief in a "Middle-East-democracy domino theory," begining with Iraq, was always the ulterior motive of the Neocon elites, and WMDs were just the subterfuge. So the failure of the purported rationale allowed the actual policy to become self-evident.

This seems to be a sort of "inverse rhyme" with Vietnam, where the failure of the stated policy (the domino theory) lead to a new, PR-friendly false rationale ("peace with honor"), but was actually just a means of continuing the same domino-theory policy under a different guise.

I await any warblogger's response to your challenge to come up with a similar list of meaningful differences.

6/14/2005 7:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your analysis is dead-on.
Hope your tax forms are completely up to date -- cause the Bushies stop at nothin' when confronted with intelligent comment.

6/14/2005 7:53 PM  
Blogger BullandBearWise said...

Big difference from Vietnam: WE WERE ATTACKED. Whether we went after the right enemy is irrelevant. Joe Sixpack will be a LOT more tolerant of this quagmire than he was with Vietnam. Particularly since we have only 1,700 dead versus 55,000.

6/14/2005 7:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

well, you managed to cobble together 15 "rhymes" between vietnam and iraq, 12 of which lack any insight whatsoever, and the others woefully old hat. what was #16? "both the vietnam and iraq conflicts were called 'wars.'"

so there are 15 similarities? how about the dozens of dissimilarities? need i even begin to list them?

dude, ya ain't a wonk, so stop with the aw-shucks, "why-am-i-the only-one-who-sees-this" political pronouncements. they just ain’t workin’.

6/14/2005 8:38 PM  
Anonymous ctbill said...

To the previous poster: yes, you "need to begin to list them." TCR issued that challenge and provides space here. Or are YOU one of those who "takes refuge in a derisive cackle?"

Somehow, I don't think we'll see that list anytime soon.

6/14/2005 9:10 PM  
Blogger Tayefeth said...

I guess if I attack bullandbearwise, he'll think himself perfectly justified in going after ctbill. After all, he was attacked, and Joe Sixpack doesn't care if he goes after the right enemy.

6/14/2005 9:36 PM  
Blogger maeldon said...

Why is it that it takes an independent blogger to bring this level of observation to light .....
and not those on TV, print, or radio??

Outstanding post.

6/14/2005 9:41 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is just an awesome post. Haven't seen too many war nuts dare to show up here...

6/14/2005 10:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree with your observations, and just wanted to say that the documentary "The Fog of War" is on cable TV tonight. It is at the point when Robert McNamara meets the Vietnam Foreign Minister in 1995 and they discuss the objectives and reasons for the Vietnam war. Bottom line the FM says the US had it wrong. Just before this scene there is a tape of Johnson talking about the domino effect. And then McNamara, just like Rumsfeld and Cheney, saying there is positive news, the tide has changed, we have the enemy, etc. Next starts McNamara's Lesson #8 (he has 11 Lessons), "Be prepared to reexamine your reasoning". McNamara said none of our allies supported us; if we can't persuade nations with comparable values the merits of the cause we better re-examine our reasoning. He states the US is the strongest nation in the world today, but we should never apply economic, political or military power unilaterally. This seemed to me to be another similarity between Iraq and Vietnam.

McNamara recognizes terrorism and WMD, but says we are contributing more to the problem than the solution.

6/14/2005 11:01 PM  
Anonymous KevinNYC said...

I have been reading, A Bright Shining Lie, John Paul vann and America in Vietnam. I am about 300 pages in. I was amazed to discover that by early 1963 we knew we were losing the Vietnam War. Vann believed at that point we still had enough time to change tactics and win the war. At the battle level it was obvious the Vietcong were getting stronger, bolder and smarter tactically. It was aparent the South Vietnamese commanders didn't want to engage the enemy and would often purposely stage raids on villages they knew the guerrillas had left and that the government of South Vietnam was essentially corrupt. As you went up the chain-command, the news got rosier and rosier until it was predicted the whole war would be won by 1966. Anyone willing to challenge this happy talk was ostracized or punished.

I think this demand for happy news over honesty is another similiarity between Iran and Iraq. As the security situation has worsened we have turned corner after corner after corner. We have heard how many times that the violence is the desperate last gasp of a dying insurgency most recently from Dick Cheney. Look at the careers of any military officer who has stood up and said we need more troops and see how honesty is treated these days.

In terms of the battle-level officers thinking Iraq is lost I've always been intrigued by this anecdote from David Corn that had officers saying "We've lost" from early 2004 http://tinyurl.com/dctwe
I ran into an acquaintance who is a former military officer. He is a rather knowledgeable chap about Iraq, who has been there several times since the invasion, and he has many contacts and friends within the highest ranks of the Pentagon. What do you think of the latest news from Iraq? I asked him. "We've lost," he said without pause. Lost? Yes, he said, adding, "but this is not just my view." He told me that the previous day he had been visiting with a pal who is a top commanding officer of the Special Forces. My friend told this commander that he had concluded the United States was a goner in Iraq. The reply: "I knew this was lost five months ago." Oh shit, my friend thought and waited for the explanation. The commander explained that back then he was driving the six-mile stretch that runs from the Green Zone in Baghdad (where the US diplomatic and military offices are headquartered) to the Baghdad airport. An IED went off and took out the car in front of him. "If we cannot secure the road to the airport, we cannot win this thing," the commander told my friend. After recounting this conversation to me, my friend said, "A bomb went off today on the road to the airport."

That was from September 2004. The Chicago Tribune has another story from yesterday. An Iraqi unit has been assigned to take over security from US in the last few weeks.
http://tinyurl.com/8uler
Star and Stripes has an article too.
http://tinyurl.com/8dppt

6/15/2005 8:38 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"need i even begin to list them?"

yeah, sparky, ya do if you're attempting to offer a credible critique. Otherwise, you're just an uninformed wannabe.

FYI -- that's generally the way intelligent debate works.

6/15/2005 9:16 AM  
Anonymous Jack Lynch said...

IRAQ Is NOT like Vietnam...Why?

Vietnam rallied around two idealogue's in Ho Chi Minh and Vo Nquyen Giap who led an ORGANIZED military in somewhat conventional terms in the NVA unconventional terms with the VC to fight the Chinese, Japanese, French and the US. Wars in some form or another were occurring in Vietnam since before the Second World War.

Ho Chi Minh was originally democratic i.e. not Communist he was appalled we supported the French after WWII and went communist then for support. He was also funded and advised by the USSR during the war v. the US.

We did not take the attack to the North in Vietnam, whereas in Iraq we are fighting the anti-US forces throughout the country.

The Anti-US forces aren't nearly half as organized as the NVA or VC during Vietnam. The Vietnamese posed a much more formidable foe and were not fearful of facing off against us in the Jungle.

During Vietnam we kept trying to fight a conventional war in the Jungle whereas Gen John Abizaid the commander of Centcom described Iraq as a guerilla war as soon as he took command.

I don't believe any American commander foresees us declaring a victory in Iraq anytime soon.

Both wars are/were Guerilla wars but so far that is the only parallel. Vietnam was a-lot larger in scale and viewpoint and comparing the two exactly in the above fifteen points is INCORRECT.

6/15/2005 11:19 AM  
Blogger Guy said...

There's an ethnic dimension to the Iraqi insurgency that AFAIK wasn't there (or wasn't as important) in Vietnam. It's inconceivable that the Shia and Kurds would acquiesce to government by the Sunni insurgents in the way that the S Vietnamese consented to government by the VC.

Other than that, an impressive and disturbing list.

6/15/2005 5:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here are some differences to chew on, not all support the war however.

1) Iraq posesses large amounts of a valuable natural resource (oil obviously) and is strategically located next to or near most of the world's other major oil producers (Iran, Saudi, Caspian basin countries). Control of oil will be critical to US relations vis-a-vis China, Russia and Europe in the coming decades. The US had no long-term strategic interests in Vietnam other than fighting Communism. This difference may be irrelevant to 99% of the US population, but it is relevant to the thinkers in the NSC and our oil-men leaders so don't underestimate their probable determination to get this done.

2) (Now going the other way) Most Americans never had a clear idea what victory would look like in Vietnam. In Iraq most Americans do have a clear idea - deposing and capturing Saddam. i.e. we have already won in Iraq as far as most people are concerned, this makes it very difficult for an American leader to explain why we are still there. It also affects the morale of our soldiers.

3) Vietnam was a culturally unified country divided in the 1950s by outside interference. Iraq is a divided conglomeration of different ethnic and religious groups unified by outside interference in the 1920s. This means the US has the desperation option, not available in Vietnam, of pacifying the country by giving one ethnic group a free hand - but the results for the local population will be pretty ugly.

4) Vietnam was fought by a conscript US army. According to Vietnam Vets I've talked to, the average quality of the US soldiers was low, morale was abysmal and drug use was high. By all accounts the professionalism of today's army is vastly superior. However, the longer the war goes on the more attrition is going to erode the qualitative difference in our troops.

5) It seems to me the cultural gap between the US and Vietnam is a lot less than the gap between the US and Iraq. Now this could be mostly hindsight speaking since Vietnam has been fairly succesful at modernizing itself over the last 30 years and Vietnam immigrants have been very good at entering American society. But those facts alone should tell us that Vietnamese basically share similar values to the US - hard work, pro business, profess strong religious beliefs but it doesn't really dominate their lives. In other words Vietnamese are, for a lack of a better word, "modern." Iraqis are "pre-modern", they still hold dear to values like honor and tribal justice that started weakening in the West hundreds of years ago. If we couldn't win the hearts and minds of Vietnamese, how the hell are we going to do it in Iraq?

Vanya

6/15/2005 6:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Jack Lynch:

I think your differences are actually more similarities than anything. Here's why:

1. Vietnam rallied around two idealogue's in Ho Chi Minh and Vo Nquyen Giap who led an ORGANIZED military in somewhat conventional terms in the NVA unconventional terms with the VC to fight the Chinese, Japanese, French and the US. Wars in some form or another were occurring in Vietnam since before the Second World War. Didn't Saddam "organize" the resistance strategy before our initial invasion? Didn't he even tell the world that there would be a bloody guerilla war?

2. Ho Chi Minh was also funded and advised by the USSR during the war v. the US. Much the same way Zarqawi's group became the official arm of Al Qaeda about a year after our invasion?

3. We did not take the attack to the North in Vietnam, whereas in Iraq we are fighting the anti-US forces throughout the country. Well, we're not really fighting anti-US forces everywhere. The North and South are largely violence-free. Seems quite similar to me.

4. The Anti-US forces aren't nearly half as organized as the NVA or VC during Vietnam. Perhaps you have access to US military intelligence from Iraq, but I'm certainly not qualified to make that comparison.

5. During Vietnam we kept trying to fight a conventional war in the Jungle whereas Gen John Abizaid the commander of Centcom described Iraq as a guerilla war as soon as he took command. While your comment is true, I think the rhyme aspect of the comparison should come in here: we're fighting the insurgency with partially uparmored humvees and big artillery and tactical airstrikes. And our actions are bounded by strict codes of engagement to minimize collateral damage. So, yes, our leaders at least KNOW we're fighting a guerilla war; it's just we're not prepared, militarily and mentally, to brutally crush a guerilla insurgency (let's face it, that's what needs to happen for us to truly be successful).

6. I don't believe any American commander foresees us declaring a victory in Iraq anytime soon. Did you miss Cheney recently saying the insurgency is in its last throes?

6/15/2005 9:08 PM  
Blogger Michael B said...

1. "The justification for massive military escalation in Vietnam was based largely on a false pretense: the incident in the Gulf of Tonkin in 1964, during which the North Vietnamese allegedly attacked the USS Maddox. A year after Tonkin, President Johnson joked about the incident saying, "For all I know, our Navy was shooting at whales out there." Similarly, at the 2004 Radio and Television Correspondents' Association dinner, George Bush presented a slide show in which he jokingly looked under pieces of White House furniture for the WMD's that were never found in Iraq."

WMD were unquestionably emphasized, but virtually every Western government's intel agencies were concuring with the WMD assessment (e.g., France, Germany, Russia, Israel).

And that is similar to the Gulf of Tonkin incident exactly how?

Additionally there were other supportive reasons for preemptively engaging Saddam's Iraq, some of the more prominent ones can be found in K. Pollack's "The Threatening Storm", about which Joshua Micah Marshall says "Pollack manages to eschew the cant, stupidity, and obfuscation which are the common currency of much of the current public debate over Iraq policy and has produced one of the key books - probably the key book - for anyone trying to grapple with the Iraq question." Some of the other reasons for the Iraq preemption were 1) The removal of Saddam Hussein and sons from power. Both PM Blair and President Bush frequently reiterated this. 2) He intended to develop additional WMD programs (confirmed by Duelfer). 3) He was engaged in a systematic pattern of deception regarding his weapons capabilities (confirmed by Duelfer and chief U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix). 4) Saddam’s removal would help in the war on terror by initiating the democratization or at least more stable and benign forms of govt in the ME. 5) Ties to terrorists, including members of al-Qaida (confirmed by the 9/11 commission). Ansar al-Islam, a radical Sunni terrorist org received Zarqawi, Taliban members and al-Queda members at its base in northern Iraq. Zarqawi, at apparently at Saddam's behest, also helped establish cells in Baghdad and other environs, primarily within the Sunni Triangle. 6) Iraq is of basic strategic significance as regards its geographical proximity to Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, each variously problematic as regards general terrorist threats and the enculturation of various salafists or Islamicist ideologies.

And all that is similar to the Gulf of Tonkin incident exactly how?

Still further, the Tonkin Gulf incident itself is rather more involved than popularized, passively received notions as reflected herein would allow. Two ships were involved, the Madox and the Turner Joy, Aug 2 and Aug 4, 1964 respectively. On Aug 2 the Madox did have a runin with North Vietnamese torpedo boats, the next day the Turner Joy reported sightings (sonar or visual, am not sure?) of torpedos, it is the latter account that is contested. McNamara, being interviewed: "... it was reported that there were shell fragments, North Vietnamese shell fragments, on the deck of the US destroyer Madox. I actually sent a person out to pick up the shell fragments and bring them to my office, to be sure that the attack did occur. I am confident that it did; I was confident then, I am confident today. That was the August 2nd attack. On August 4th, it was reported another attack occurred. It was not clear then that that attack had occurred." Same interview, now concerning the Aug. 4 attack: "On August 4th, it was reported another attack occurred. It was not clear then that that attack had occurred. We made every... possible effort to determine whether it had or not. I was in direct communication with the Commander-in-Chief of all of our forces in the Pacific, SINCPAC, by telephone several times during that day, to find out whether it had or hadn't occurred. He had reports from the commanders of the destroyers on the scene; they had what were known as sonar readings: these are sound readings; there were eyewitness reports, and ultimately it was concluded that almost certainly the attack had occurred. But even at the time there was some recognition of a margin of error, so we thought it highly probable but not entirely certain."

And this is similar to Iraq exactly how?

6/15/2005 9:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

the iraqi insurgency lacks the ideological content present in the opposition/insurgency in vietnam.

that's a big difference.

6/16/2005 12:18 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

1. The military alone could not win the Vietnam War during the Westmoreland years either, but they did beat the Viet Cong. After the 1968 Tet Offensive, the Viet Cong were virtually finished as an effective fighting force. Its ranks were filled after primarily by North Vietnamese regulars. When Saigon finally fell, it was the North Vietnamese army that marched into the capital and very few Viet Cong. Given that the Sunni Iraq insurgents are indicating that they want to enter the political process, we may be beating the “Iraqi Viet Cong”, too. The remainder of the Vietnam War was much more of a conventional war.

2. Lewis Sorely makes a plausible argument that during the Vietnam War, the U.S. and South Vietnamese forces defeated the North Vietnamese forces in conventional war during the Abrams years. Sorely writes:

"THERE CAME A TIME when the war was won. The fighting wasn't over, but the war was won. This achievement can probably best be dated in late 1970, after the Cambodian incursion in the spring of the year. By then the South Vietnamese countryside had been widely pacified, so much so that the term "pacifica¬tion" was no longer even used. Four million members of the People's Self-Defense Force, armed with some 600,000 weap¬ons, represented no threat to the government that had armed them; instead they constituted an overt commitment to that government in opposition to the enemy.

South Vietnam's armed forces, greatly expanded and im¬pressively equipped, were substantially more capable than even a couple of years earlier. Their most impressive gains were in the ranks of the territorial forces—the Regional Forces and Popular Forces—providing close-in security for the people in the countryside. The successful pacification program, one re¬peatedly cited in enemy communications as a threat that had to be countered, was extending not only security but also elected government, trained hamlet and village officials, and economic gains to most of the population.

In Military Region 3, the critical complex of provinces sur¬rounding Saigon, recalled General Michael Davison, "it is fairto say that by the winter of 1970–1971 the VC had virtually been exterminated and the NVA, which had endeavored to go big time with divisional size units, had been driven across the border into Cambodia."' "And by 1971," recalled Colby, "I could go down the canals in the Delta in the middle of the night." And he could—and did—drive out in the countryside around Hue, just two unarmed jeeps in convoy, to show the British ambassador around. They saw people standing guard where three years before divisions had been fighting. "I mean," said Colby, "the hell with the numbers. I don't know about the numbers either, but by God I did it. "



"The viability of such arrangements would be demonstrated in 1972, when the enemy's Easter Offensive was met and turned back after heavy fighting by just that combination of South Viet¬namese and American forces and resources. So severely were the invading forces punished that it was three years before they could mount another major offensive, and that despite the com¬plete withdrawal of all U.S. troops in the meantime. At that later fateful juncture, as will be seen, the United States defaulted on all three elements of its promised support and, unsurprisingly, the war was no longer won."

Lewis Sorely, A Better War, 2000

Today we have a Republican President and Congress who are unlikely to default on those three elements. How is this similar to Vietnam?

In Iraq we won the conventional war first and now are winning the indigenous insurgency, i.e., Sunni Ba’athist insurgency, while in Vietnam we won the indigenous guerilla war first and then the conventional war. In short, the Iraq War is being fought in the reverse order. During the Westmoreland years, there may not have been a front line, but after Tet 1968 with the Viet Cong virtually eliminated, there was a front line.

3. One mistake that many anti-Iraq advocates make is thinking that the Vietnam War was fought the same way for its entirety when there were, in effect, two wars: the Westmoreland war and the Abrams war. John J. Miller characterizes Sorely’s A Better War as follows:

"There was a moment when the United States had the Vietnam War wrapped up, writes military historian Lewis Sorley (biographer of two Vietnam-era U.S. Army generals, Creighton Abrams and Harold Johnson). 'The fighting wasn't over, but the war was won,' he says in this convention-shaking book. 'This achievement can probably best be dated in late 1970.' South Vietnam was ready to carry on the battle without American ground troops and only logistical and financial support. Sorley says that replacing General Westmoreland with Abrams in 1968 was the key. 'The tactics changed within fifteen minutes of Abrams's taking command,' remarked one officer. Abrams switched the war aims from destruction to control; he was less interested in counting enemy body bags than in securing South Vietnam's villages.

A Better War is unique among histories of the Vietnam War in that it focuses on the second half of the conflict, roughly from Abrams's arrival to the fall of Saigon in 1975. Other volumes, such as Stanley Karnow's Vietnam and Neil Sheehan's A Bright Shining Lie, tend to give short shrift to this period. Sorley shows how the often-overlooked Abrams strategy nearly succeeded--indeed, Sorley says it did succeed, at least until political leadership in the United States let victory slip away. Sorley cites other problems, too, such as low morale among troops in the field, plus the harmful effects of drug abuse, racial disharmony, and poor discipline. In the end, the mighty willpower of Abrams and diplomatic allies Ellsworth Bunker and William Colby was not enough. But, with its strong case that they came pretty close to winning, A Better War is sure to spark controversy."

--John J. Miller

4. The military could not win the Vietnam War with just Westmoreland’s attrition (search and destroy) strategy, but Abrams fought a clear-and-hold strategy. Again, to quote Sorely, “Later, when General William B. Rosson arrived to succeed Andrew Goodpaster as Abram’s deputy, it was very clear to him how things had changed since his last tour of duty in Vietnam. “Abrams (with Bunker) had made it it ‘clear and hold’ instead of ‘search and destroy,’” he observed succinctly. Said Bunker of “clear and hold” as the tactical approach, “it proved to be a better policy than the policy of attrition. The policy of attrition simply meant under those circumstances a very prolonged type of warfare,, whereas if you can clear and hold and keep an area secure and keep the enemy out, psychologically as well as from a military point of view you have got a better situation. In effect, you shifted the initiative from the enemy to you.”

5. Rumsfeld has said all along that the U.S. military alone could not win in Iraq, but that the Iraqi’s had to win it. So we are fighting an attrition war now as we await the training of the Iraqi forces at which time the strategy will begin to switch to a clear-and-hold strategy.

"The U.S. strategy in Iraq is limited by a number of factors: the U.S. forces available, Iraqi politics and the time it is taking to create a competent Iraqi military. But the ongoing river campaign indicates that America has chosen to go on the offensive, taking advantage of the success in Fallujah to deny the insurgents respite. The high operational tempo is intended to rapidly degrade the rebels' lines of communication at both ends of the two river corridors, while killing and capturing as many of the enemy as possible.

But while military operations have weakened the insurgency, military means alone cannot defeat an insurgency. That is why it is necessary to bring the Sunnis into the government. Recent evidence suggests that the steps so far have already begun to drive a wedge between the Sunni and the foreign jihadis who have come to fight for Zarqawi."

--Mackubin Thomas Owens is a professor of national security affairs at the Naval War College

"For good or ill, the strategy in the Wild West of Anbar appears to be one of establishing distinct garrisons in locations such as Qaim, Haditha and other locations, patrolling the territory, conduct search and destroy missions at opportune times when targets and threats materialize, and waiting for Iraqi security forces to train up and deploy to fill the security needs of the region."

--Bill Roggio

6. The military said after the Afghanistan War that it would take five years to build a national Afghan army. Why would anyone expect it to take less time in Iraq? The Iraqi forces are improving. Col. Austin Bay reports: “I’ll comment on the difference in operational emphasis at a later date– but it’s clear the Iraqis are taking on a larger share of the operational burden. After the ops briefing we talked with the current corps commander, Lieutenant-General Vines, for about an hour. When asked about Iraqi participation in security missions, Vines gave us a rough percentage figure. In at least nine out of ten security operations, the new Iraqi military is providing half of the forces. The Iraqi units demonstrate tactical combat proficiency but –this is the short version– lack logistical support organizations and heavy weapons (eg, sufficient artillery).”

By 1973 the ARVN in Vietnam were able to hold their own against the North Vietnamese army with just U.S. materiel, aid and air support.

It is pretty much a myth that ARVN was not capable of fighting and defending South Vietnamese against the NVA. See “Reassessing the ARVN” (http://www.thehistorynet.com/vn/blreassessingarvn/) I do not see much evidence that the Iraqis will not be able to eventually defend them against their foreign invaders - al-Qaeda.

7. Now, as to the media, now and then. I agree that the MSM is reporting today in much the same way as it did during Vietnam, but I would go on to say that the MSM’s reporting today is just as bad as it was during Vietnam. Peter Braestrup, who was the Washington Post bureau chief during the 1968 Tet Offensive, wrote Big Story, an award-winning book on press coverage during that offensive. Here is a description of Braestrup’s credentials:

"Peter Braestrup was chief of the Washington Post’s Saigon bureau during Tet. He was a journalist for twenty years with Time, the New York Times, and the Washington Post and was the recipient of a Nieman Fellowship at Harvard in 1959-60. He is now editor of The Wilson Quarterly at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars at the Smithsonian Institution in Washington…Big Story won the 1978 Sigma Delta Chi award for research in journalism."

The back cover of Big Story provides this synopsis:

"In 1968, American newmen in Vietnam were overwhelmed by the Communists' Tet Offensive. They portrayed the battle as a "disaster" for the allies, and the political repercussions of this image helped topple President Johnson at home and change the course of the war in Vietnam. Yet, ironically, historians now conclude that Tet was a harsh military setback for Hanoi, not for Washington. Why were the press and TV so wrong? This is Peter Braestrup's Big Story..."

I would argue that all the major institutions involved in the Vietnam War changed the way they did business because we lost the Vietnam War except for the MSM. It did not have to change because it believed it had won. For more on this, see “A First Draft of History” by Bret Stephens (http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110006409). But during this war the problems of the MSM war coverage are being found out in real-time thanks in large part to the internet and blogosphere – tools which were not available during the Vietnam War. So, although the MSM may be parallel in the two wars, the internet makes critical difference.

8. There may be valid parallels and differences between the Vietnam and the Iraq wars, but they may not be exactly what The Cunning Realist thinks they are. As Joe Katzman says in “Yes, The War on Terror = Vietnam” (http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/006881.php), “The current war may indeed be Vietnam redux. The Left erroneously assumes that it will therefore be on the winning side. I wouldn't be so sure.”

6/16/2005 12:48 AM  
Blogger Michael B said...

2. "The Vietnam War was conceived by a supposedly elite group of thinkers and geopolitical strategists known as "the best and the brightest"---successful academic and corporate leaders who took over the most important senior posts in Washington. Another group of close-knit, supposedly elite ideologues known as "neocons" were instrumental in the planning and execution of the war in Iraq."

This is so obviously self-serving and lacking in content that it approximates a line one might see in a comic book, a complete non sequitur. What's next, attempts at demonization on the order of Bush/Blair=Stalin/Hitler? Too, the Vietnam war was variously conceived, the Johnson/McNamara/Westmoreland years mixed and among the worst, the later Creighton Abrams years among some of the best, later still the ARVN took over with notable success until we shamefully cut off funds in '75, even though American personnel had essentially left the country and were no longer at risk. The ARVN and South Vietnamese more generally have been wrongfully demonized for years as well, yet another fact allowed by complacent, passive types susceptible to popularized propaganda.

6/16/2005 1:04 AM  
Anonymous causeiambetta said...

US will not up and leave controll of middle eastern oil. period. thats why Iraq+Afghanistan will not be Vietnam. USA is in this for the long haul, lives be damned. Control of the most valuable resource in the planet, is everything.

6/16/2005 2:37 AM  
Blogger TW Andrews said...

You've got a couple of good points, particularly about the fact that insurgencies were/are involved in both Iraq and Vietnam. However, there is one critical difference, which renders moot at least points 5, 6, 7, and 8. During Vietnam, the North Vietnamese Army was supplied by China and the Soviet Union, which allowed them to continually re-equip. While there are definitely foreign fighters in Iraq, and Iran, Syria, and Saudia Arabia do what they can to meddle in Iraq, their interference is categorically different than that of a former super-power, and the most populous nation on Earth.

Additionally, we're not trying to fight in Iraq like we did in Vietnam. We're not acting on a force vs. force paradigm as Westmoreland did. We know we're fighting an insurgency and we're using tactics appropriate to the situation.

The geography and technology are very different too, and both of those make a substantial difference, as do the politics of the region. Global politics matter too, in this case. Iraq isn't a "hot" flare-up in the Cold War, as was Vietnam, but rather the major campaign (for good or ill) in the War on Terror.

In any case, there are definitely some similarities, but I don't think that you can draw any conclusions from them.

6/16/2005 9:09 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Iraq isn't a "hot" flare-up in the Cold War, as was Vietnam, but rather the major campaign (for good or ill) in the War on Terror."

That final assumption isn't really justified. Do you think, for example, that the results of the Iraq conflict are really going to affect how North Korea behaves? If we manage to get out of Iraq soon enough to minimize further damage to morale, recruitment, etc., then we may not lose much fighting power overall. But that says nothing about the possibility of NK becoming a vendor of nuclear weapons.

Likewise, having screwed the pooch for four years in terms of homeland security spending discretion, is the administration suddenly going to start putting money where we need it just because Iraq works out?

And so on.

6/16/2005 12:38 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

1. The WMD case for the Iraq War was mistaken, but in good faith; the Tonkin Gulf incident was a fabricated pretense.

3. It is remarkable that this paragraph could be written without any reference to September 11; not with respect to Saddam's direct involvement - I'm not convinced that there was any - but in terms of dictating a revised U.S. policy in the Middle East. "Domino theory?" What about Bin Laden's domino theory? Would direct U.S. intervention in this historically dysfunctional region be justified by a nuclear attack on the U.S.? Multipler nuclear attacks? Or should Bush have accepted the status quo?

4. Phew. Thank God the activist, unselfish Baby Boomers came and saved the world. Maybe there's another generation of this quality waiting in the wings. Heaven forbid.

8. "Frustration" may be leading "some" calls for action in Iraq and Syria, but not most. Large-scale terrorism succeeds by hiding behind national sovereignty and using that nation's resources, while maintaining a plausible separation from that nation. Do you really think that the "insurgency" stops at the Iraqi border?

12-13. It's never too difficult to ascribe motivations and rationales to nameless "defenders of the war" and "shameless pollyannas." Some specific quotes and references, please.

14. I can't speak for "our leaders," but my problem with the press is their lack of judgment and perspective in reporting rather than what they report. Was Abu Ghraib a legitimate news story? Yes, I think it was. Should it have been trumpeted to the extent that it was, with little effort to add perspective or put the situation in context? Hardly. Or take the "Koran Abuse" scandal. The whole thing is essentially laughable from a common sense standpoint. Not so much for the 17 dead in the resulting riots. Yet the media's response, as a group, was not to question its approach to or priorities in reporting; it was to commence a witch hunt to find a comparable circumstance so that they could show that their mistake was "not too far from the truth." Hardly an admirable response, in my view. Maybe the Times should change its slogan to "All The News, Not Too Far From The Truth, That's Fit To Print."

You make some good points, and some ridiculously biased ones. Sorry, I'm not as impressed as Belgravia Dispatch seems to be.

6/16/2005 2:06 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...

I think one similarity not outlined has to do with the Powell Doctrine. Unfortunately it seems the 'exit strategy' was forgot about both times - ironically intimately involving the man himself the second time around.

Otherwise, great post. I hope the wheel of history turns differently this time (e.g. that frustration over this war is not taken out on the soldiers, but the true culprits).

6/16/2005 2:25 PM  
Blogger Michael B said...

3. "The ideological justification for the Vietnam War was "the domino theory." This postulated that if all of Vietnam went Communist, the rest of Southeast Asia and beyond would fall like dominos. After the war, former Secretary of Defense Clark Clifford said, "What we thought was the spread of Communist aggression in my opinion now seems very clearly to have been a civil war in Vietnam. The domino theory proved to be erroneous. The United States made an honest mistake." When it became clear that Tonkin was a fabrication and in 1970 Congress repealed the Tonkin Gulf Resolution that had provided authorization for the war, Nixon began using new justifications that prolonged the war for years, including his "power as Commander-in-Chief" and the need for "peace with honor." Similarly, having found no WMD's in Iraq because of an "honest intelligence mistake", the Bush administration came up with new justifications such as the importance of a "free Iraq" to the spread of democracy in the Middle East and beyond."

Eisenhower, in the early 50's, was perhaps the first to articulate the so called domino theory. Let's review some historical facts, skipping over situations like Greece in the late 40's and beginning with Korea in the early 50's.

Korea, reflecting a war that was fought, and Taiwan, reflecting a war that never did have to be fought, help serve as two points of comparison in terms of potential Cold War era hot spots on the Pacific rim. Other points that serve as focal points are Laos and Cambodia, the only two countries, other than China, which border Vietnam. Taiwan, for one, was never seriously threatened during or after the war, helping to demonstrate the deterence that Korea and Vietnam instilled. Cambodia and Laos did suffer as did South Vietnam itself - precisely because the Western Left was successful in having us abandon our commitments. Too, in the case of the Phillipines and Malaya, neither of which bordered a communist regime (thus negating or greatly mitigating the prospects for a domino effect), communist insurgencies were defeated without much difficulty. Further, by the end of the Cold War, not one country in the region fell to communist rule that did not border a Maoist or Stalinist regime. The three countries that did fall were South Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos, thus demonstrating the domino effect, i.e., when the country was contiguous with a totalitarian regime.

Concerning Tonkin as a fabrication, see post dated 6/15, 9:50 p.m.

6/16/2005 2:30 PM  
Anonymous texas pete said...

I thought this was a very, very good post, historically accurate. Very worrisome as well.

6/16/2005 2:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've read a few of the comments posted by others in response to TCR's invite to post rebuttals. On balance seems to me TCR's list holds up well. Some of the quibbles dont't seem to even make sense.

6/16/2005 2:56 PM  
Anonymous nyc said...

oasis? i'll quench my thirst with the thinkers not the conformers.

6/16/2005 3:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Michael,
are you claiming that the "Western Left" is responsible for the killing fields?

--Jake

6/16/2005 4:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your victory condition seems to be a complete end to all terrorist activities in Iraq. A representative government is not able to employ the draconian removal of life and liberty necessary to eliminate terrorism. A more realistic victory condition is to establish a representative government that must deal with a terrorist problem. After all, the US has one of the highest murder rates for any first world nation and no one is claiming the country has fallen.

6/16/2005 4:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Reagarding #3: "...the Bush administration came up with new justifications such as the importance of a "free Iraq" to the spread of democracy in the Middle East and beyond."

This is misleading. The idea was perhaps not emphasized, but it was certainly present. Even as our troops were massing in Kuwait I recall reading a NYTs editorial that indicated that the admin was using too many justifications - WMDs, terrorism, and the spread of democracy. So, to say that the admin "came up with new justifications" is not really true. They are emphasizing a different one, but that is different from your implication.

6/16/2005 5:46 PM  
Blogger Michael B said...

Jake,

That's outside the topic of this thread and I don't feel comfortable getting in a tit-for-tat about the topic anyway (though I do understand it's unavoidable at some level), as if it's just another set of poker chips to argue over. Here's a Dith Pran interview though that came up with a quick google, Dith Pran being, of course, the Cambodian and NYT photog about whom the movie "The Killing Fields" was made. Am not avoiding, but maybe another discussion in another thread. The short answer is that Pol Pot and is coterie of Maoists are the guilty ones, the long answer can be virtually endless and that's another reason I don't wish to use this thread for that purpose.

The statement you're presumably referencing is:

"Cambodia and Laos did suffer as did South Vietnam itself - precisely because the Western Left was successful in having us abandon our commitments. Too, in the case of the Phillipines and Malaya, neither of which bordered a communist regime (thus negating or greatly mitigating the prospects for a domino effect), communist insurgencies were defeated without much difficulty. Further, by the end of the Cold War, not one country in the region fell to communist rule that did not border a Maoist or Stalinist regime. The three countries that did fall were South Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos, thus demonstrating the domino effect, i.e., when the country was contiguous with a totalitarian regime."

However, that was brought up as an aspect of a response to #3, the post dated 6/16, 2:30 p.m., concerning the domino theory.

6/16/2005 7:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

1. The release of Downing Street Memo has it made it clear that there was genuine fear that Saddam Hussein possessed chemical and biological weapons and would put them to use.

2. Planning and execution of a war resides with the military. McNamara and Rumsfeld are the public face of strategic choices presented to the President by the military.

3. It has been argued that the lengthy fight in Vietnam held off the spread of communism allowing other Southeast Asian nations, namely Thailand, Singapore and Malysia, to adopt liberal economies. The fight against Islamic Supremacists in Iraq is/may prompt other Middle Eastern countries such Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Kuwait, Iran, to liberalize their economies, their press and their political institutions. With respect to communist aggression in Vietnam, read Michael Lind’s The Necessary War. Furthermore, Bush has not provided NEW justifications. The justifications were always articulated, quite eloquently by Blair, rather the threat of WMD was amplified during the lead up to war.

4. When has this country NOT questioned our involvement in Iraq. How many marched against the war? Wasn’t the predominant theme of the 2004 elections – Bush Lied, People Died? Please avoid the sweeping generalizations about American culture, the only ones infatuated with Paris Hilton are the media and teenagers.

5. There was no “front line” – isn’t that the nature of assymetrical warfare?

6. Some have posited that wars are also won and lost on the political front. Sunni Iraqis will need to lay down their guns and participate in the governance of Iraq. Sunni Arabs in Saudia Arabia, Syria and Jordan will need to stop the financing of the insurgency.

7. Vietnamization – November 1969 to February 1973. I certainly hope we provide far greater support to both Afghanistani and Iraqi forces.

8. Is it desperation to cut off supply trails? Perhaps the error was in deferring the decision. Is it not true that Syria a few weeks back turned away 2000 foreign fighters? Did the calls for military action play a role in Syria decision to more closely monitor the border with Iraq?

12. Most people subscribe to the belief that withdrawing troops prematurely in Iraq will have horrible consequences to the Iraqi people much as the withdrawal of support to South Vietnam brought untold misery to hundreds of thousand, if not millions, of Vietnamese.

15. WW II press coverage was far more cirumspect in all facets of the war. It was a tremendous shock to the American public to see photographs of soliders lying dead in the sand. 1st image of dead American soldier was Sept. ‘43.

Saigon/Bagdad – why not Saigon/Kirkuk?

6/16/2005 7:55 PM  
Blogger Lee_In_London said...

Here's some more similarities with Vietnam:

1. When America withdrew 1 million Vietnamese were killed by the new communist government.
2. China, emboldened by its success in Vietnam, supported the Pol Pot regime in Cambodia. Pol Pot killed 25 % of the Cambodian population, often in sadistic circumstances. People who wore glasses were considered to be 'intellectuals' and were eliminated
3. Vietnam invaded Cambodia, when Pol Pots henchmen realised that they were next to be sent to the camps. Vietnam installed an Ex Khmer Rouge leader. Admitedly, he reduced the kill rate, but still carried on.
4. The Vietnamese eventually kicked out these thugs and are now a democratic country seeking to globalise
5. The Cambodian people eventually kicked out these thugs (with help from Britain and America)
6. America could possibly have won Vietnam, but they were hindered by 'Peace Activists' and political cowards, they did not have enough men and fire power. Britain did win a similar (Communist insurgency) war in Malaysia in the 1970s.

6/17/2005 4:55 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I guess you can add another similarity, the use of Napalm .

"American officials lied to British ministers over the use of "internationally reviled" napalm-type firebombs in Iraq."

6/17/2005 11:50 AM  
Blogger Lee_In_London said...

According to the article quoted above from the Independent, which is not seen as a serious newspaper here in the UK, they are the most anti American publication here, even claiming that America deserved September 11th:

"They were used against military targets "away from civilian targets", he said... the 1980 Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons (CCW)...which permits their use only against military targets."

Another non- story

6/17/2005 4:36 PM  
Blogger Lee_In_London said...

PS Anonymous

I have tried to find a reliable source for the story that the US is using napalm in Iraq. It is certainly unusual that none of the MSM (BBC, CNN,etc)have carried the story. I doubt that it is true, but have an open mind.

6/17/2005 4:48 PM  
Blogger Michael B said...

Even if true, the article states, with some exactness, there were thirty (30) such uses during a two or three day period between March 31 and April 2, 2003 against military targets. If true, were they used in order to help minimize a significant loss of life on the part of US and coalition forces? Is that question relevant at all to our anonymous poster?

But this type of facile sniping is typical, is it not? Rather than substantially reflecting an "intellecutal oasis" these confines reflect something much more akin to an intellectual ditch or rut; even when prominent counter arguments are advanced on the basis of historical/empirical and entirely rational and well reasoned positions, they are ignored or evaded - full bore ahead, blinders carefully in place.

6/17/2005 6:11 PM  
Blogger Michael B said...

Re, Neil Sheehan's "A Bright Shining Lie," unquestionably this can be a valuable book - though not always in ways intended by Sheehan (which is not to diminish other aspects, this is not at all intended as some type of simplistic or blanket dismissiveness). Still, Prof. Peter Rollins provides critical perspectives.

Another read, published roughly at the same time, is A Death in November by Ellen J Hammer, focusing on Diem's assassination in Nov. 1963 and little known historical facts that pertain to Diem's general biography and the assassination/coup more specifically. Hammer's is not an agenda driven telling, the good, the bad and the ugly are not at all glossed over and many critical historical details are revealed and placed in perspective.

6/17/2005 6:36 PM  
Anonymous janechester said...

TCR, I think this was one of the best posts I've read by any blogger or writer in a long time. I was born in 1944, so I remember many of the things you write about such as Vietnamization.

How absurd it all seems now. What a waste.

6/18/2005 11:31 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

TCR and jane did you miss this a few posters up?

http://www.thehistorynet.com/vn/blreassessingarvn/

What is your response? Wy do all you who agree with TCR close eyes and ears but do not support your reasons and also do not answer questions that have been asked?

6/18/2005 4:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

reliable source for the story that the US is using napalm in Iraq

They go under the name napalm, firebombs or MK77; which is now a mixture of jet fuel and a gelling compound, but the same effect. Whose in Iraq these days anyway reporting this stuff? I thought after Bush declared major combat over all the "embedded" journalists left. Was that a mistake for the media to leave?

You don't hear much about the dirty bombs and cluster bombs either. Or our nuclear buildup, mininukes, nuclear bunker busters. Or "Star Wars" (not the movie). In a time when we should be talking about universal nuclear disarmament, Bush is building our stockpiles, and lord what do we do with the waste (assuming we live through it); dump it in the Delaware River or transport it across the country to Yucca Mountain. What's a little more risk in Las Vegas anyway.

Checkout the Nuclear Threat Initiative supported by both Ted Turner and Warren Buffett. War and nuclear weapons are our number one problem for our time. And just think, as Bush was telling us on the one hand he was doing all he could to avoid the Iraq war, on the other hand he was already planning and implementing it. It isn't that N. Korean has nuclear crap or may use them; it is more likely because they are in such desperately poor shape that they may sell the technology.

6/18/2005 5:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is another similarity between Vietnam and Iraq, Jane (above) was alive during both conflicts, therefore they must be the same?

6/19/2005 6:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Re: "reliable source for the story that the US is using napalm in Iraq"

I do not think you can read "Anonymous", the key word is reliable

6/19/2005 7:01 AM  
Blogger Lee_In_London said...

Hello Anonymous

"War and nuclear weapons are our number one problem for our time"

Indeed, the debate is what you do about them.

I guess you can either attack or surrender, in the hope that your enemy will not attack you. The 1980s peace movement Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, believed it was better to disarm in the face of the Soviet threat. Even though the Soviets had killed 30 million of their own citizens and China has also killed over 30 million of their own citizens. (Now you may believe that George Bush is the new Hitler, but unless I have missed something, I do not think he has initiated mass killings in the US?

As an Englishman, I have come to believe that the US is indeed the greatest civilisation on earth and has done the most to drag this world of despotic countries along (less than half the world is democratic), including fighting in Indochina. Check out this picture of a woman being stoned to death in Iran http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16800.

You may not believe this claim from the Head of UN Weapons inspector, the body responsible for the prevention of the proliferation of nuclear weapons, that Al QAEDAis seeking a nuclear weapon http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13325377,00.html


CNDs disarmament plan may or may not have led to the invasion of Western Europe, and the establishment of secret police, we will never know. Certainly many historians now believe, that at least this appeasement would have allowed the communist mafia to keep control of Eastern Europe and to carry on killing and torturing their own people.

Ronald Reagan took an alternative approach. He believed Communism was inherently evil and had to be defeated rather than contained or appeased. He started an arms race. CND organised protests, 1 million people turned out to protest in New York alone. However, Ronald Reagan won, Communism collapsed, because Ronald Reagan linked negociations to the release of political prisoners. Political prisoners were freed, the secret police disbanded.

Clearly, Ronald Reagan's strategy of taking on despotic regimes worked. Now it is too early to say whether Iraq will be a success. But the recent moves to democracy in the Mid East have led some European media (The London Times and Der Spiegel) to compare the Bush doctrine in the Middle East with the Reagan doctrine against communism.

Now there's a lesson from history. I wish the answer were simpler and that we had many easy options, but I think history demonstrates that there is not.

6/19/2005 7:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You know what! Honestly I really like that fact that everyone can sit here and debate this war of Iraq back and forth. But, I'd like to remind you that while you guys are SITTING and arguing this issue. Others like myself are actually over here fighting at the moment. So until those of you actually get up off of your lazy asses and actually do something for your country or something for us! (the troops). Sitting here and fighting over past mistakes regardless of the similarities or lack there of, and not coming together to stand up and fight for a real solution. There is no point!

SSG O'Gara
FOB: WARHORSE
-Freedom has a taste, that the protected will never know-

6/19/2005 10:20 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Warhorse, thank you. Some specific suggestions:

Operation Gratitude, help send care packages

Spirit of America, various and sundry

Operation Hero Miles (recently donated 50,000 Delta miles)

Soldiers' Angels, run by Moms of troops

Support the troops with deeds, not merely with words.

6/19/2005 4:09 PM  
Blogger bob said...

Hi,

This was an interesting essay, and I posted a counterpoints over at my blog.

6/20/2005 12:21 PM  
Blogger bob said...

Got the link wrong, sorry. See http://www.breakdownlane.net.

6/20/2005 1:46 PM  
Blogger Lee_In_London said...

Hello SSG O'Hara

My uncle and my god father were paratroopers at Arnehm in WW2, who served in the liberation of Europe. I met an old gentleman, over ayear ago, who was a Royal Marine Commadondo at Libeck in Malysia (an old forgootten war that noody knew about in my country- but it is actually our (British) equivalent in Vietnam. I really do hope that you gentlemen serving in Iraq get the same respect and gratitude that I have seen given to my ancestors in Europe, and also the forgotten battles. My uncles also served in Burma in WW2.

God bless America.

6/20/2005 7:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, you USA people are responsable of what happened, what is happening and what will happen... now it seams the terrorist is Chavez and the Venezuelian people.. we are terrorist just because the Neocons and those who pay them found it is not easy to take our gas... WHO IS RESPONSABLE FOR THAT?.. now if the german people still are paying to jews for what "maximised" happened during Hitler lidership in 2end W War.. so.. who is going to be responsable for Bush acts?.. is it going to be the CocaCola.. or Mardonalds.. HalleiBulton.. or USA People.. ARE YOU GOING TO GIVE US $$$ AND CARS for the crimes of your leading criminal clas? please USA PEOPLE you must REACTION...

6/22/2005 1:16 PM  
Blogger gino said...

someone forgot to mention about the DOMINO THEORY in the 50s propogated by Dulles in regards to the eventual fall of South Vietnam to communism which would lead to the eventual fall of each surrounding country leading inevitably to the USA?
modern day version: terrorism today as opposed to yesterday's communism? communism may have fell but Bush still embraces communist Vietnam.

6/22/2005 7:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

While one can make many comparisons between different wars which seem to have similarities, it is really the differences of history before those wars occurred that tend to be the determinants of the outcome of the wars.

Reflecting, for example, on American history one must remember that population pressures had been developing in New England prior to 1755 when Braddock was done so brown.

Prior to 1740, approximately, geographic constraints contained the New England colonists to a thin coastal strip so there was little chance for a confrontation between the New England colonists and the colonists in New France.

However in 1755 a confrontation did occur near the present location of Pittsburgh and that led to seven years of warfare between England and France and, in the end, the King of France ceded New France to England in 1763.

It wasn't superior tactics or superior training of the British forces that resulted in the fall of New France. Historians tell us that the French soldiers were much better shots than the British and that General Wolfe made several blunders in previous battles with Wolfe. In other words, the Battle on the Plains of Abraham was won by the British by luck, pure and simple.

After the King of France lost New France he was anxious for revenge.
When the Revolutionaries managed to force Burgoyne to surrender after the battle at Stilwater, the King of France saw a chance to get even with the King of England and guaranteed the loans the Germanic banks were prepared to make to the Revolution and to send some French noblemen to aid the Revolution.

When the Congress could not pay the debts owed to the Germanic banks, the Germanic banks demanded payment from the King of France. Several very painful years for the Estates General followed and, as economic conditions in France started to improve after those hard-times, the Estates General became disenchanted with the nobility, most of which had become indolent and parasites. These parasites were busily putting out lettres de cachet, imprisoning each other in the Bastille while they were in Paris when they should have been at their estates attending to business. Finally the Estates General had had enough and the French Revolution followed.

It is important to remember that Napoleon was essentially a revolutionary, not an aristocrat by temperament. The British aristocracy hated and feared him. His Edict of Berlin was years ahead of civil laws of the British laws and, indeed, his laws on marriage strongly influenced laws in several States in the USA and Canada until post World War II in regard to community of property.

My point: you get nowhere by comparing individual wars in the way you tend to have done. You must understand the cultural history of the protagonists if you want to estimate what the chances for military success may be.

Historians estimate that Alexander the Great probably had fewer than 60,000 soldiers in his army when he crossed the Helaspont to attack the Persian Army that the same historians estimated at half a million. The big difference was that Alexander's army was essentially Hellenes and extremely so while the Persian's were Arabs, Persians, Sycthians, Hebrews, and probably 'others'. It must have been very difficult to train and properly-equip such a huge army as the Persian King had.

Viewed in that light, perhaps you will agree with me that the outcome in Vietnam was inevitable as was the war in Korea...essentially stalemates.

I doubt that the war in Iraq can be won because there are too many vastly-different ethnic communities involved. If you could unite these communities in a strongly-supported common goal there would be a chance but the attitudes of the Bush Administration, in my opinion, do not encourage a unifying of these communities except to want the Americans out NOW.

6/23/2005 10:22 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So the comment was we were ATTACKED. Really!!! Did Hussain send troops to this country. There was NOT ONE Iraqi among the 19 hijackers, but 16 SAUDIS and the mastermind is also a Saudi and his finacing is also Saudi.
Did we threaten the Saudis? No, we went after Iraq. But then that is understandable as the Bushes are a wellfare case of the Saudis and you NEVER go after the hand that keeps you living the good life. You may need them in the future. It is so nice to know that we have been sold out to the oil companies. I wonder what we, the ordinary citizen of the USA, will have to pay when the bill comes do. We know the Bushes will NEVER HAVE TO.

6/23/2005 10:38 AM  
Blogger Michael B said...

Anon, 6/23, 10:38 a.m.,

Some info regarding Saddam Hussein's Iraq and al Queda. First here, concerning al-Zawahiri, also here from VDH, you also should read, if you're sincerely interested in the subject, the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Report, some excerpts and notes follow:

"In March 1998, after Bin Ladin’s public fatwa against the United States, two al Qaeda members reportedly went to Iraq to meet with Iraqi intelligence. In July, an Iraqi delegation traveled to Afghanistan to meet first with the Taliban and then with Bin Ladin. Sources reported that one, or perhaps both, of these meetings was apparently arranged through Bin Ladin’s Egyptian deputy, Zawahiri, who had ties of his own to the Iraqis.

"Similar meetings between Iraqi officials and Bin Ladin or his aides may have occurred in 1999 during a period of some reported strains with the Taliban ...". (pg. 66)

That report also states "... to date we have seen no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship ..." though commission chair T. Kean also noted "there was no question in our minds that there was a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda."

6/23/2005 5:15 PM  
Blogger Officious Pedant said...

14. I can't speak for "our leaders," but my problem with the press is their lack of judgment and perspective in reporting rather than what they report. Was Abu Ghraib a legitimate news story? Yes, I think it was. Should it have been trumpeted to the extent that it was, with little effort to add perspective or put the situation in context? Hardly. Or take the "Koran Abuse" scandal. The whole thing is essentially laughable from a common sense standpoint. Not so much for the 17 dead in the resulting riots. Yet the media's response, as a group, was not to question its approach to or priorities in reporting; it was to commence a witch hunt to find a comparable circumstance so that they could show that their mistake was "not too far from the truth." Hardly an admirable response, in my view. Maybe the Times should change its slogan to "All The News, Not Too Far From The Truth, That's Fit To Print."

I found this quote interesting, and wanted to ask what the context was? What is the context in which torture is OK? What is the justification for those who died during questioning? What is the moral context in which these people felt that they could get away with this stuff? Or is abusing prioners mentally, emotionally, and physically different when its American troops doing the abusing?

The news from Abu Ghraib wasn't so much about who got abused, and why, though it certainly played a role. It was about what American military personnel at the prison thought was acceptable to do to prisoners. Acceptable to the point that they confidently took pictures to show their friends and families.

Some will argue that it was an isloated case of perverts out for kicks, except that it went on for months under the supervision of a command structure that was, largely, relieved for cause after the investigation. Some will argue that what was done was necessary for intelligence purposes, except that we are supposed to be the moral authority here, and a signatory to the conventions on torture. A convention we've made no effort to withdraw from, instead opting to examine what priveleges the President enjoys at a time of war. Like immunity from prosecution, and "legal options" when it comes to torture.

I particluarly enjoyed the approach that the 17 dead follwing the riots were the result of the reporting, but remained mum on the nearly thirty deaths under investigation as criminal homicide. A couple of soldiers have even been sentenced, sort of (three years seems...light to me), for the murders of two Iraqi prisoners. Did the distorted reporting make them do it? Are we now going to compare rationales on who is allowed to kill whom? A far more laughable approach, in my opinion.

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

November 13, 2005
Like Vietnam, Iraq gets no guarantees when U.S. leaves


Anyone interested in bringing an end to the war in Iraq should revisit the waning days of U.S. involvement in South Vietnam. The lesson is that, absent annihilation by nuclear weapons or unconditional surrender, ending wars takes years, especially complicated and controversial wars. President Richard Nixon inherited the Vietnam War from the Democrats, and he brought it to a conclusion for America. It was called a ''peace with honor,'' but not for South Vietnam. Somebody had to lose.

My father had enlisted in 1954 when Vietnam was divided into two countries, and I landed in Saudi Arabia in 1990. After 21 years, my father's war ended in a rapid, public and humiliating defeat; the communists marched him into the re-education camps for more than a decade. My war was the 100-hour sandbox skirmish called Desert Storm, after which President George H.W. Bush declared to Congress, ''We've kicked the Vietnam Syndrome.''

The war in Iraq is at a crossroads, somewhat similar to Vietnam in 1969. The Iraqi military is under the microscope, like the South Vietnamese, but on a much shorter leash and timeline. It will be on its own soon.

After running on a platform to end the conflict, Nixon won the Oval Office at the height of the war in 1968. National Security Adviser Henry Kissinger began secret negotiations with the North Vietnamese behind Saigon's back. In 1965, the United States had taken over the war, with troop strength peaking at 560,000. Before that, the South Vietnamese fought for themselves, with the help of American advisers. The South Vietnamese military expanded, with the goal of replicating the military philosophy and tactics of their great ally. Unfortunately, this meant inheriting the associated cost, and dependence on the United States.

In a taped conversation declassified in 2003, Nixon and Kissinger mulled over the situation in preparation for the election of 1972. It worried Nixon that ''losing'' South Vietnam would cost him re-election. ''If we settle it, say, this October (1972), by January '74, no one will give a damn,'' Kissinger said coldly.

Nixon needed to get the American POWs home. Some had been held for as long as nine years, and there were other re-election concerns. Nuclear-arms negotiations were under way with the Soviets. The situation involving Israel and Egypt, along with subsequent oil crisis, was threatening. Kissinger also met secretly with the Beijing government, which led to Nixon's landmark visit to China in February 1972. Detente with the Soviets and a direct channel to China meant that Vietnam remained a burr under the saddle of U.S. foreign policy. In January 1973, the Paris Peace Accords were signed; Kissinger took home the Nobel Peace Prize while his co-recipient from North Vietnam rightfully declined.

Three key provisions (or concessions) in the accords would contribute to the fall of Saigon. First, the North Vietnamese were allowed to keep 150,000 soldiers in the south. Second, the United States would retaliate if North Vietnam violated the accords. Finally, and most important, the United States would continue to aid South Vietnam unconditionally. The latter two provisions would never happen.

The anti-war movement was adamant about ending the war; Saigon had to fall. The high U.S. casualty rate, the Kent State National Guard shootings, Jane Fonda's visit to Hanoi and the My Lai massacre drained the American psyche. The invasion of Cambodia added fuel to the fire. Congress intervened, and the War Powers Resolution took effect. Watergate loomed in the background, then exploded.

In August 1974, President Nixon resigned. The news sent a shock wave throughout South Vietnam. To make matters worse, in the same year, Congress reduced aid to South Vietnam. The new anti-war class entered Congress, and they ensured that the United States would not re-engage in Southeast Asia. America's withdrawal from Vietnam took four years. Two years later, Saigon fell.

Long after the Vietnam War had ended, I stood on the tarmac wearing my dress uniform at the former Marine Corps Air Station El Toro. A Boeing aircraft with the presidential seal on its side had brought the 37th president home to Orange County one last time. A few lucky Marines and I witnessed the Nixon family and his casket deplane. A chilling 21-gun salute followed.

Nixon was a complicated man for a complicated time. In the end, despite the distractions, he did what was best for the United States, not for South Vietnam. Today, with the anti-Iraq-war movement gaining steam, with hurricane relief efforts and other hot-button issues occupying the Bush administration, it will still be years before our military comes home.

And there's no guarantee for the people of Iraq after that.

Quang X. Pham, a Marine veteran of the Gulf War, is an entrepreneur and author of ''A Sense of Duty: My Father, My American Journey.'' This article is adapted from a talk he recently gave at the Richard Nixon Library & Birthplace.

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

that war's shameless pollyannas were still insisting the Vietcong and North Vietnamese were on the verge of defeat

One of those "pollyannas" of course would be NVA General Giap himself who admitted they were on the ropes and defeated after Tet...but held on only because of the American media's erroneous portrayal of that action as a defeat for the Americans.

9/21/2006 12:09 AM  
Anonymous Wingnut said...

Alright, ya sniveling peaceniks! You want a list? I'll give you a list.

Reasons Iraq is nothing like Vietnam:

1: Ever see a camel in Vietnam? I didn't think so.

2: In Vietnam, our boys cruised around in boats tripping on acid and playing the Stones. In Iraq, they drive humvees, smoke Kools, and listen to fiddy cent. OK, some of them take Geritol and listen to the Stones.

3: Vietnam lasted what, 12 or 14 years? Iraq will take 6 months, TOPS.

4: Vietnam: Gooks. Iraq: Sand Niggers. Absolutely no comparison.

5: With Vietnam, the New York Times lost the war for us. With Iraq, they started it.

Now quitchurdamn bellyachin, TCR!

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11/18/2006 5:05 PM  
Anonymous swank said...

this is so true...maybe someday ignorance will climb off some of
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3/12/2007 2:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Michael B said...
Anon, 6/23, 10:38 a.m.,
Some info regarding Saddam Hussein's Iraq and al Queda

Ahhh, the good ol' SH al Qaeda link up. You should read your sources a bit more thoroughly...

0.3 "PHASE TWO" AND THE QUESTION OF IRAQ

President Bush had wondered immediately after the attack whether Saddam Hussein's regime might have had a hand in it. Iraq had been an enemy of the United States for 11 years, and was the only place in the world where the United States was engaged in ongoing combat operations. As a former pilot, the President was struck by the apparent sophistication of the operation and some of the piloting, especially Hanjour's high-speed dive into the Pentagon. He told us he recalled Iraqi support for Palestinian suicide terrorists as well. Speculating about other possible states that could be involved, the President told us he also thought about Iran.59

Clarke has written that on the evening of September 12, President Bush told him and some of his staff to explore possible Iraqi links to 9/11. "See if Sad-dam did this," Clarke recalls the President telling them. "See if he's linked in any way."60 While he believed the details of Clarke's account to be incorrect, President Bush acknowledged that he might well have spoken to Clarke at some point, asking him about Iraq.61

Responding to a presidential tasking, Clarke's office sent a memo to Rice on September 18, titled "Survey of Intelligence Information on Any Iraq Involvement in the September 11 Attacks." Rice's chief staffer on Afghanistan, Zalmay Khalilzad, concurred in its conclusion that only some anecdotal evidence linked Iraq to al Qaeda. The memo found no "compelling case" that Iraq had either planned or perpetrated the attacks. It passed along a few foreign intelligence reports, including the Czech report alleging an April 2001 Prague meeting between Atta and an Iraqi intelligence officer (discussed in chapter 7) and a Polish report that personnel at the headquarters of Iraqi intelligence in Baghdad were told before September 11 to go on the streets to gauge crowd reaction to an unspecified event. Arguing that the case for links between Iraq and al Qaeda was weak, the memo pointed out that Bin Ladin resented the secularism of Saddam Hussein's regime. Finally, the memo said, there was no confirmed reporting on Saddam cooperating with Bin Ladin on unconventional weapons.62


http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch10.htm

3/19/2007 1:22 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think the terrorists have lost in the big picture. They have been unable to strike anywhere in the world for a long time because the world has adjusted it's defenses against them. The only reason they are fighting in Iraq is because they can claim the illusion that they are winning. They have lost the war in the world and they know it.

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think the terrorists have lost in the big picture. They have been unable to strike anywhere in the world for a long time because the world has adjusted it's defenses against them. The only reason they are fighting in Iraq is because they can claim the illusion that they are winning. They have lost the war in the world and they know it.

5/24/2007 10:01 AM  
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9/11/2007 1:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think a perspective that everyone needs to remember is "I'm gonna be patient, about this thing, and not go firing a 2 million dollar missile at a 10 dollar tent just to hit a camel in the butt," by President Bush.

That's exactly what he has done...spending upwards of $1 Trillion of the nation's treasury and creating a global military conflict - to get a handful of terrorists (and he STILL hasn't found Osama).

Really

5/03/2008 10:47 PM  
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