"Is It Safe?"
From the NYT:
The more we learn about all this, the more we're forced to realize how much of our own identity we've lost. Is anyone still wondering why we're taking refuge in reassuring, self-affirming and ultimately desperate symbolism like outlawing the desecration of the flag?
Military doctors at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, have aided interrogators in conducting and refining coercive interrogations of detainees, including providing advice on how to increase stress levels and exploit fears, according to new, detailed accounts given by former interrogators.The disintegration of a nation's moral compass continues apace. Isn't it fascinating how easy and painless it is? It almost could have happened between the first and ninth innings of a ballgame on a cloudless day, or during a commercial in a celebrity entertainer's trial.
The former interrogators said the military doctors' role was to advise them and their fellow interrogators on ways of increasing psychological duress on detainees, sometimes by exploiting their fears, in the hopes of making them more cooperative and willing to provide information. In one example, interrogators were told that a detainee's medical files showed he had a severe phobia of the dark and suggested ways in which that could be manipulated to induce him to cooperate.
In addition, the authors of an article published by The New England Journal of Medicine this week said their interviews with doctors who helped devise and supervise the interrogation regimen at Guantánamo showed that the program was explicitly designed to increase fear and distress among detainees as a means to obtaining intelligence.
The accounts shed light on how interrogations were conducted and raise new questions about the boundaries of medical ethics in the nation's fight against terrorism.
Bryan Whitman, a senior Pentagon spokesman, declined to address the specifics in the accounts. But he suggested that the doctors advising interrogators were not covered by ethics strictures because they were not treating patients but rather were acting as behavioral scientists.
"Their purpose was to help us break them," one former interrogator told The Times earlier this year.
The more we learn about all this, the more we're forced to realize how much of our own identity we've lost. Is anyone still wondering why we're taking refuge in reassuring, self-affirming and ultimately desperate symbolism like outlawing the desecration of the flag?
posted by The Cunning Realist at Friday, June 24, 2005
33 Comments:
The title of this one really evokes the right atmosphere for the topic-anyone who hasn't read Marathon Man should do so in light of today's reality.
I am so amazed by humanity's ability to deny what is happening.
Bad input produces bad output.
Good management seeks input from everywhere, takes it in and produces a decision and ways of testing the underlying asumptions as the plan unfolds.
We have the worst management possible in this administration.
And yet people rally to the we're the good guys-they're the bad guys. Can't listen to them-evil fairy tale that is being perpetuated.
So interesting.
"Is it safe?" Perfect!
What more can we do except continue to shake our heads? Oh wait...we can demand accountability.
Unreal, and surreal.
I think most reasonable people know we are NOT safer.
These situations are always made worse when the medical profession, one that takes an oath to help, itself contributes to torture. Wonder what Doctors Without Borders would say about this one.
I hate to burst your bubble but we lost our moral compass a while ago; some would say we lost it when Enron was able to disguise its debt and rob California and joke about little old ladies. Of course their were the analysts, Meeker, Blodget, Grubman, that were less than moral. Or corporations weren't made to expense stock options. Are our politicians moral, when the only reason they pass legislation or don't pass it, is because they receive wads of money from lobbyists. Is Karl Rove malicious tactics moral? When people rob other hardworking folks of their money, and/or rig the market, or do phoney accounting, a lot of people are hurt in more ways than anyone will admit. But that's okay grandpa doesn't need a retirement fund. He can crunch his cold arthritic fingers around a Walmart cart to greet consumers. But that's now, read about things like the Cherokee Trail of Tears or Crazy Horse and how we tried to exterminate an entire group of people, and I just think our true colors are showing now. It is hard work to be civil and moral, and although we were making progress, we have certainly digressed in the last 20 years!
To previous poster, you realize the "is it safe" line is from the Dustin Hoffman movie "Marathon Man" right?
I guess these doctors don't subscribe to "first, do no harm."
Now what's the use of going to medical school if you can't use the knowledge you've gained to torture detainees? Not everyone is cut out to heal the sick.
if things like this continue to come out the time will come when what is and is not acceptable interrogation prcatice needs to be set in stone. i can already hear some people arguing, thats not torture, they're not hurting them, they're not using drugs or hooking them up to car batteries, they're just making them afraid of the dark. The use of pyschological torture can be far worses, far more damaging to the person being interrogated. But then again, we get to the point where if nothing is done its not like anyone just gives up information cause the interrogater gave them a cookie and a pat on the head...
But Durbin apologized, right?
All is well. Move along, people. Nothing to see here.
Durbin's apology was one of the odder bits of political theater we've seen in a while. Sort of like, "I apologize for saying that the troops who were torturing people were acting like people who we despised for torturing people."
Didn't make a whole lot of sense. But I guess that's modern politics in a nutshell. No matter what some of them might do, no one wants the label of 'guy who doesn't support the troops.'
Wow.
I will use my power to help the sick to the best of my ability and judgment; I will abstain from harming or wrongdoing any man by it.
There's little room in the intepretation of the Oath of Hippocrates for "not covered by ethics strictures because they were not treating patients but rather were acting as behavioral scientists." It's always sad to see some dystopian element come true, but rarely does it happen so clearly and so close to home:
'You asked me once,' said O'Brien, 'what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world.'
The door opened again. A guard came in, carrying something made of wire, a box or basket of some kind. He set it down on the further table. Because of the position in which O'Brien was standing. Winston could not see what the thing was.
'The worst thing in the world,' said O'Brien, 'varies from individual to individual. It may be burial alive, or death by fire, or by drowning, or by impalement, or fifty other deaths. There are cases where it is some quite trivial thing, not even fatal.'
He had moved a little to one side, so that Winston had a better view of the thing on the table. It was an oblong wire cage with a handle on top for carrying it by. Fixed to the front of it was something that looked like a fencing mask, with the concave side outwards. Although it was three or four metres away from him, he could see that the cage was divided lengthways into two compartments, and that there was some kind of creature in each. They were rats.
'In your case,' said O'Brien, 'the worst thing in the world happens to be rats.'
Okay, I have to depart from the consensus here.
I am all against the use of physical torture to obtain information, but are we to declaw our interrogators by not allowing them psychological games? I think this is a time for a reality check.
Do you expect people in confinement to ante up information just because they are confined? That isn't the way it works. Not every prisoner is a pool of bravura waiting to divulge his grand scheme of things and contacts to show us how smart and powerful they are. This isn't Austin Powers, and they aren't Dr. Evil.
Sometimes you need dirty tactics to get what you want. It's not "nice" but it's reality. But those dirty tactics should not include beatings, food deprivation, or pissing in the vents so that urine "accidentally" falls on someone's copy of the Koran.
To continue Syrin's thought, if a few dozen or a few hundred people happen to die while you are not torturing them, even with the medical supervision, that is all part of the process, and must be thoroughly applauded as well.
I am all against the use of physical torture to obtain information, but are we to declaw our interrogators by not allowing them psychological games? I think this is a time for a reality check.
It's long been held that physical pain has fewer lasting effects than psychological pain. My grandfather was institutionalized his entire life after his tour in the pacific in WWII (Iwo Jima appeared to be the battle that tipped him) - kept trying to kill the family when he got home, you see. A great uncle faced the same fate - he was a medic at Omaha beach. Neither one was physically wounded, mind you. My other great uncles, many lost limbs, were paralyzed, etc. all came home and had otherwise normal lives.
Just because blood isn't shed doesn't make it any less painful or debilitating.
Do you expect people in confinement to ante up information just because they are confined? That isn't the way it works. Not every prisoner is a pool of bravura waiting to divulge his grand scheme of things and contacts to show us how smart and powerful they are. This isn't Austin Powers, and they aren't Dr. Evil.
And we need them to divulge their information for what reason? We have no other resources - no other sources of information? And who's to say that these individuals have any information? How much coercion would an innocent person need to bear before the interrogators give up? Or do they just keep cranking up the juice? Where's the line? Do we strap a cage of rats to their face? Do we go further? It's just psychological after all...
Sometimes you need dirty tactics to get what you want. It's not "nice" but it's reality. But those dirty tactics should not include beatings, food deprivation, or pissing in the vents so that urine "accidentally" falls on someone's copy of the Koran.
Want? We do this for want? I think the military would be hard pressed to show 'need' in this case. If the only way to our objectives is through prisoners, we're really screwed.
And why is psychological mistreatment better than pissing on a Koran or food deprivation? Pissing on the Koran *is* psychological mistreatment - the book doesn't care, only the individual! Depriving food is also psychological mistreatment - you can live weeks without food without lasting effects - but the mind becomes so preoccupied with getting food that it pushes reason aside.
I wonder if this nation is on some kind of cognitive dissonance overload. So many people are willing explain away government behavior that is so fundamentally against the interests of this country.
Amazing. The American flag is to be burned when it is soiled, or displayed upside down when a ship is sinking or in distress.
It's time to turn that flag upside down! It's time to burn a couple! The United States morals were written in the declaration of independence to apply to ALL people, all of the time: not just when it suits us or our national interests. None of those soldiers should be undergoing any form of torture, nor should they ever be held without speedy trial. This enemy combatant thing is brand new to me. POWs are supposed to be foreign soldiers we capture, in order to take them out of the battle field. Where's the battle field? Where are the soldiers.
We should be using truth as our ammunition, and justice for an alienated people (the Palestinians, if I really need to identify who was kicked out of their homes at the end of WWII). We should be showing hospitality to all members of the international community, even if their beliefs differ from ours. Those who kill Americans, on American soil? They're murderers, and should be treated as such, with a proper trial as designated by the system all Americans are supposed to trust.
Oh, wait. There is no reason to trust the system if you're of African decent, Asian, Hispanic, poor, Native American, Middle Eastern, homosexual, bisexual, un-wed, a single parent, a woman, athiest, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu, Agnostic, Pagan, Accult or of whomever else the President disapproves.
I say we rise up. Reclaim our rights to Independence, Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. I reclaim my right to privacy and my right to a free press, and the guarantee that our government was designed so that No one branch could have domain over another. Judiciary checks the Legislative branch, Legislative checks Executive, Executive checks Judiciary and finally Judiciary CHECKS EXECUTIVE BRANCH! Judges are supposed to be activists. Activists for freedom, secularism and the RULE OF LAW, not God, not one man and certainly not one party. The executives are supposed to be the conformists, abiding the letter of the law faithfully and without hesitation.
RISE UP AMERICA!!! Impeach Mr. Bush, Mr. Cheny, Mr. Rove and the entire Republican party. They intend to impune the power of our Constitution, our laws in this Our Government, For us and By us.
Well, that felt good. Thanks for the forum.
Okay, there has been criticism about a lack of human intelligence intelligence in the area. Do you know what that means? It means we haven't had enough people on the ground willing to give information or able to retrieve information to help us stop terror networks.
We have few people who could pass for native Iraqi/Afghan/Yemeni/whatever people that wouldn't seem suspicious. And few people there are willing to help the CIA.
The kind of information you need to get to effectively stop terror networks doesn't come from satellite imagery. And you can only glean so much from a laptop recovered AFTER an air strike. You find out where hideouts and key people are by talking to people. A motivated enemy may not give up this information. Granted, someone who has been locked up for 2 years may not know anything relevant but that's an extreme situation. What about the guy that has only been there 2 weeks?
I understand that the psychological scars run deep, but let's not forget that we have an actual ENEMY out there, and they are not going to be coddled, nor should they be. It is a shame, but that IS a part of war. It is one reason why we should be reticent to go to war in the first place. If I was a prisoner of war, I would not expect to be treated well - it ain't Club Med! War isn't fun. Information is the key to winning, and you can't separate that fact from what goes on here.
Interrogators use whatever tools they can to glean information. Police do it here day in, day out - they may just lack the extra tools like the doctors' profile. But if they know something about a person, they will leverage everything they can to get information.
I am not going to assume that all prisoners of war are innocent. Is that the difference here? I know that there are plenty of grunts who know next to nothing, and I am loath to think that the government would waste time and energy on grunts if they have already given up the range of their knowledge. There are hundreds of prisoners - do you think we have the resources to do that kind of interrogation every day? I don't think so. So my perception of the range of "abuse" is curtailed.
Psychological warfare is a key part of war. That is reality. The fact that someone's relative comes home with mental scars is a shame, but it is one of many consequences of war. Few come home unscathed. It is the nature of war. Reality is not always nice or pretty.
Okay, there has been criticism about a lack of human intelligence intelligence in the area. Do you know what that means? It means we haven't had enough people on the ground willing to give information or able to retrieve information to help us stop terror networks.
We have few people who could pass for native Iraqi/Afghan/Yemeni/whatever people that wouldn't seem suspicious. And few people there are willing to help the CIA.
So how does this get people on the ground? In the city where I live there are *tens of thousands* of Iraqi/Iranian/Afghan people. Most are intelligent, educated, patriotic people and quite a few were born and raised here. Why aren't we recruiting them? After 9/11 we investigated them, so we know their background, but none of the ones I know have been approached to work in the agency. Why?
Psychological warfare is a key part of war. That is reality.
True. But these people are prisoners, not combatants. They are no longer part of the war. That is reality. I have no problem with psychological warfare against people shooting at our troops. I have no problems with large-caliber weapons being fired at those people, or 2000lb LGBs landing on their heads. But do we get to shoot the prisoners? No. Why? The rules are different once you stop being a combatant. It's in our national interest to enforce this, or else we give our enemies every right to do the same to our prisoners.
If anyone knows anything about actual psychology out there, they migh have learned that no matter how mean you are to a deviant with aggressive tendencies, you will only encounter more resistance. BUT if you are really really nice to them and pretend to understand what they are talking about, eventually they spill their guts. I've been there, and done it. It works much better than any form of pressure or torture ever could. Essentially braggart friends tell their friends EVERYTHING. Braggarts only tell their enemies what they think will impress or scare them, and that often means they are telling lies.
Why aren't we recruiting more native- born Americans of Middle Eastern descent? I wish I knew. Maybe the Government questions their ultimate loyalty. Occam's Razor says... that's probably the right answer. Or maybe they are too conspicuous, too western.
As for this:
But these people are prisoners, not combatants. They are no longer part of the war. That is reality. I have no problem with psychological warfare against people shooting at our troops. I have no problems with large-caliber weapons being fired at those people, or 2000lb LGBs landing on their heads. But do we get to shoot the prisoners? No. Why? The rules are different once you stop being a combatant. It's in our national interest to enforce this, or else we give our enemies every right to do the same to our prisoners.
You are conflating the physical torture, which is not acceptable, with psychological torture to obtain information. A non-combatant doesn't have weapons anymore, but they have information. Information doesn't dissipate with non-combatant status. It may become less relevant over time, depending on how big a fish the prisoner is, but information is always fair game. There is reality. And to take away the psychological tools to pry information from enemy prisoners is a bridge too far, in my opinion. This isn't some bad cop show where the bad guy is going to ante up information.
Respectfully, people - get real.
The Stain of Torture
The link is to an article by the presidential physician to the first President George Bush, regarding government-sanctioned torture and excessive abuse of prisoners.
I long for men of that caliber and character today. How come the Son seems soooo much worse than the Father?
Anyone catch ABC/Disney's Paul Harvey's radio program on Thursday where he advocated using the a-bomb in Iraq. He said we elbowed our way into this country by using biological warfare on the Indians (referring to the small-pox blankets), used the sweat of slaves, and we should use every weapon we have our hands on now. So our savage past is what made us great and that civility will kill us.
It is scary to think that these are the folks in our government right now!
If every country has this attitude today, there won't be a planet to worry about.
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