Monday, July 18, 2005

This Should Play Well In Tehran....

From the AP:
A Colorado congressman told a radio show host that the U.S. could "take out" Islamic holy sites if Muslim fundamentalist terrorists attacked the country with nuclear weapons.

Rep. Tom Tancredo made his remarks Friday on WFLA-AM in Orlando, Florida. His spokesman stressed he was only speaking hypothetically.

Talk show host Pat Campbell asked the Littleton Republican how the country should respond if terrorists struck several U.S. cities with nuclear weapons.

"Well, what if you said something like -- if this happens in the United States, and we determine that it is the result of extremist, fundamentalist Muslims, you know, you could take out their holy sites," Tancredo answered.

"You're talking about bombing Mecca," Campbell said.

"Yeah," Tancredo responded.
Question: if you lived in North Korea or Iran, would this make you more or less eager to own a deterrent? And what about the Saudis? Anyone want to fault them for recently refusing to allow nuclear inspectors into the kingdom?

TCR hereby nominates Tom Tancredo for the Richard Nixon "Think Big" Award. The origin of this prestigious citation comes from the following exchange between Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger about Vietnam which appears on the White House tapes:
Nixon: I'd rather use the nuclear bomb. Have you got that, Henry?

Kissinger: That, I think, would just be too much.

Nixon: The nuclear bomb, does that bother you? I just want you to think big, Henry, for Christ's sake.
It's comforting to know that "Thinking Big" hasn't gone out of style in Washington....


Blogger Jake said...

Perhaps Mr. Tancredo believes that Allah is actually holed up in the Kaabaa and so Mecca would be a strategic objective . . . . .

7/18/2005 6:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

can't lie, i'm not as worried about a nuclear war as I am of the fact that when I get in a car and drive down the highway the people in the cars all around me actually CHOOSE TO ELECT A GUY LIKE THIS. Our country is doomed. This is what happens when everyone can vote and only half the country is educated.

7/18/2005 7:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Perhaps some day you could share your thoughts on a more appropriate response to a 'nucular' attack.

7/18/2005 8:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous says: "Perhaps some day you could share your thoughts on a more appropriate response to a 'nucular' attack.

Why, the "jukular response," of course!

An aerial bombardment of cutting edge comic-commandos, each one armed to the teeth with the latest in WhipSnap Wittery, Deadly Puns...and the dreaded Elite Bulwar-Litton Brigades: contest-hardened badfic Lit Crit Killers, who will leave a trail of broken grammar, mangled metaphors, and horribly violated imagery behind them.

"The American Sense of Humor: In war, no one can hear you laugh until you pee your pants."

7/18/2005 9:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Even on a yahoo stock board I read, the "bomb Mecca" meme has taken root. When some neandrathal suggests it in an OT (off-topic) post, it usually provokes more negative responses than positive, but the difference ain't all that much. Lots of other reactionaries jump right on it with a "Fuck yeah!" or the equivalent. Unbelievably sick and scary.

7/18/2005 9:45 PM  
Blogger Mark said...

I am of the opinion that if the terrorists exploded nuclear weapons in American cities, that all bets are off. Nuke the whole Middle East, and damned be he who cries "foul"!

7/18/2005 10:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The above comments are good indoicators of why nuclear weapons should be controled, destroyed and outlawed.

what an amazing brain killer

7/18/2005 10:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Bigger the Boys; the bigger their "TOYS".
Braggadocio, swagger, bullymouth, knee jerk!

Anyone want to venture what happens AFTER we nuke Mecca?

7/18/2005 10:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OK, does that mean if the person or persons found to explode the nuclear device are Jewish, we take out Israel, and if they are Christian, we take out the Vatican?

It's pretty scary to see the only superpower on earth being run by a bunch of power-drunk adolescents.

It is becoming easier and easier to believe we are all doomed...

7/18/2005 11:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Too stupid to live...and...I hope these nitwits don't breed" comes to mind.

We really need to get back to election of the fittest soon. If we don't get smarter people into positions of power, our Republic is doomed. And let's not bomb Mecca before we've solved the fossil fuel problem.

7/18/2005 11:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

(shakes his head in sadness)

7/19/2005 12:31 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mark Maneness - Didn't your mama ever teach you that two wrongs don't make a right?

Ah, maybe you're just blowing off a little steam (and not really the whole Middle East).

7/19/2005 12:37 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was stunned that this Nixon quote was real!

7/19/2005 2:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"think big"......!

Dr. Strangelove all the way.

7/19/2005 4:49 AM  
Blogger Mark said...

I suppose, that were the terrorists to set off nuclear explosions in America, the proper response would be to offer them tea and crumpets? What if the cities they take out are your cities? The word is not revenge. It is retaliation, and fighting back is basic human instinct. It is the reason we, as humans, still exist on Earth.
I don't say we should target their places of worship. I say target their whole durn country if they attack first. Do any of you have a better solution?

7/19/2005 8:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"You're talking about bombing Mecca," Campbell said.

"Yeah," Tancredo responded.

This is a Representative to the U.S. Congress. One would believe that there is a modicum of decorum and sense brought to bear over sensitive issues such as this.

Then Tancredo talks and whisks that notion right out the window. Conflagration will solve everything, and requires precious little thought and understanding of who you are obliterating.

Unfortunately, his quote could elevate his standing in this type of administration and Republican party. *sigh*

- David Boyer

7/19/2005 8:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mark Maness:

We've already been attacked, then, under your standard. Almost ALL of the 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.

What have we done to punish Saudi Arabia for 9/11??

7/19/2005 9:16 AM  
Blogger owenz said...

The idea of "nuking Mecca" in response to a large-scale attack seems to make some sense until you actually think about it. Would such an action deter future terrorist attacks? I seriously doubt it. More likely, it would please the terrorists. Al Qaeda is essentially a death cult: the more apocolyptic their war with the west becomes, the more justified they feel in their attacks. A nuclear strike killing millions of Muslims would motivate and justify the terrorists' actions.

I'm not pacifist. If a major atrocity (such as a nuclear detonation on US soil) occured, the American response would need to be immediate, massive, and overwhelming. I'm not positive where our attack would focus in this scenario, but I do know this: indiscriminately blowing up entire cities would not be very useful. Nuking Mecca, for instance, would bring the world oil supply to a grinding halt.

7/19/2005 10:08 AM  
Blogger Randall said...

I don't think Tancredo's remarks are the reason why countries like Iran & North Korea are building nuclear arms. NK is doing it to raise funds, Iran is doing it to deter a US ground attack. Get real. I'm about to unsubscribe to this blog just one day after subscribing. I thought you had a pair. I think that the nuclear threat is real, and if there is any chance at stopping religious zealots from using nukes, it is by telling them what the consequences are. Ultimate threat requires the ultimate response, and let's make it REALLY public so these terrorist-worms get the message.

7/19/2005 10:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, it's only fair.

After all, they struck OUR most holy of holy sites, seeing as how the WTC is like the Vatican for the Religion of Mammon.

7/19/2005 11:52 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

marc maness: I suppose, that were the terrorists to set off nuclear explosions in America, the proper response would be to offer them tea and crumpets?

One of terrorism's advantages is that it is almost impossible to respond to in ways that don't play into and expand terrorist ideologies.

"Tea and crumpet" thinking may be an interesting, counter-intuitive response.

Retaliation may be human nature, but so is scratching our asses when it itches, and most of us have seen fit to supress that urge.

7/19/2005 11:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The problem with nuking Mecca goes to the heart of the “war” on terrorism, your fighting a war against a true army of one. A terrorist is not a nation, if you try to hold a nation or a religion responsible for the actions of an individual or group you open Pandora’s Box. Does the US as the only true super power get to decide where and when we retaliate? Do we go to the UN, our allies? Do you really think Tony Blair will be next to W as he authorizes the drop? Will nuking Mecca accomplish anything but angering the Islamic world that may be just as angry as we are at US cities being nuked? What if the bombers are home grown, US citizens convinced that this is their duty to Allah? Do we nuke Charlotte or Tampa if they’re from these cities but they nuked New York or LA?
Maybe we beef up port security now, change immigration laws, and take a hint from the Brits and blanket major cities with CCTV cameras. There are no easy answers; nuking Mecca is an easy, even lazy answer, to an impossible question, how does one respond to nuclear terror attack?

7/19/2005 11:54 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Where is the outrage from the right about this quote appearing on Al Jazerra and putting out soldiers in danger? I think this is infinitely more harmful to us than anything Dick Durbin said.

7/19/2005 12:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would have to agree with the blog author. Destroying religious monuments is comparable to killing innocent civilians (such as the terrorist actions taken against us); it is only meant to anger the other side and accomplishes nothing in the way of weakening the enemy. On the contrary it makes them stronger. Just think of it as bombing the vatican, regardless of whether you are religous or not it would be a huge symbolic gesture not against our society or government but against our whole civilization as it was built by religious people of the Christian faith. It seems to me that a good way to combat cowardly moronic half-wits like the terrorists that are attacking the west right now is to keep our standards high and defeat them without lowering ourselves to their cowardly ways. The last message that we want to convey to terrorists, regardless of who they are, is that we object to their religion and lifestyle because that is exactly what they want to believe and it would fuel their anger and justify their cause on top of it not being true. On a related topic, are ignorance and intolerance signs of decadence? Because if there is any example in history of a country that has become stupidly decadent its ours.

7/19/2005 12:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can't believe I am writing this, as its completely counter to my natural proclivity towards diplomacy-driven foreign policy, but realistically, if a nuclear weapon is detonated on US soil-- in an American city-- yes there should be and, I would have to think, will be a nuclear response on the part of the United States.

Towards whom, I don’t know.

As someone has already pointed out, 11 Saudi Arabians attacked the United States with hi-jacked American airliners and we decimated… Afghanistan. I am sure this would cash out much the same. Someone will be held to account for crimes of that magnitude against the globe’s only superpower-- someone tangible-- has to be a nation-state; has to be. If a superpower sits on its hands when it comes under attack in the most extreme way and with the most devastating weapon that our species can think up, than its not a superpower. It has immediately forfeited its status, clout, and legitimacy. No president, regardless of party will allow that to happen. Its basic geopolitics.

Whether we admit it or not, for good or for ill, the call for blood under those circumstances will be deafening because the economic and social fallout will be cataclysmic. It will come not just from the US-- not just from Congress; from all quarters.

7/19/2005 12:41 PM  
Blogger CM said...

Saying "there should be a nuclear response to a nuclear attack" is a far cry from saying that, if some non-state group sets off a nuke in the US, we should in turn "nuke Mecca." This is a war against a bunch of anarchist adherents to a virulent and violent strain of Islam, not a war against the idea of Islam as such. Nuking Mecca would be (a) killing a bunch of people who had nothing to do with attacking us, and (b) a declaration of war on the Muslim world as a whole, which numbers a billion people and stretches around the world. Are we going to nuke the world? You think some other folks might, I don't know, object? Oh, and (c), nuking Mecca would forever forfeit any hold the US may have on moral or cultural superiority, and any claim to representing universal rights and beliefs (e.g., life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness). Other than that, it's a swell idea.

7/19/2005 12:59 PM  
Blogger curiousgemini said...

Just the thing to win over the hearts and minds and Muslims.

We can slate this comment next to Pat Robertson calling Mohhamad a "terrorist".

7/19/2005 2:16 PM  
Blogger Spanky Quigman said...

Just to correct a point in the original article, WFLA is not an Orlando station, it's in Tampa. I used to listen to it all the time when I was a kid. They were one of the last stations to have radio shows on, including Mystery Theater with E.G. Marshall. Good stuff.

7/19/2005 3:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...
only 1 post, analyzed the situation best.

who knows the amount of harm to the US and soldiers all over the world this politician has cause. now every mullah across the world will scream and shout how Christian US will bomb Mecca.

turning 2billion muslims into psychotics, to whom death is better than living, would mean WW3. i don't know what will happen if/when a US city gets bombed. i just don't know. war will be the kneejerk reaction, thats for sure.

7/19/2005 4:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why, Iran, of course.

7/19/2005 4:48 PM  
Blogger Tayefeth said...

if there is any chance at stopping religious zealots from using nukes, it is by telling them what the consequences are.

If you want to deter behavior, you have to come up with a response that the individual(s) in question don't want. Triggering Armageddon is what the religious fanatics do want. How is using nuclear weapons on a holy city going to deter anyone who thinks that a messiah will come down from heaven when the Great Satan attacks the Holy Land?

7/19/2005 5:19 PM  
Blogger Patrick Ian Banks said...

Jeez, I'm as much of a neocon hawk as you'll ever find, but nuking Mecca? That's fucking insane.

7/19/2005 5:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

and Tancredo was just on Fox, did not apologize, and in fact said he felt the same as when he said it!!

7/19/2005 6:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This issue is a good proxy for who is sane and who's not. And those who are not? We're finding out who they are. That's a good thing.

7/19/2005 6:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So many morons, so little time…

OK kids, here’s the history lesson: the reason most of you are alive today, and the reason the French are still around to annoy us all is that the Cold War policy of “deterrence” a.k.a, “mutually assured destruction” actually worked. The Russians never invaded Western Europe because they knew it would lead to a tactical nuclear response by the US, which would in turn trigger a strategic thermonuclear exchange. Communism was evil, but not suicidal, and so the Cold War drug on until the Soviets went bankrupt and gave up. This was a far better outcome than anyone dared hope for during the preceding forty years.

The dilemma today is how do you deter Islamic terrorists from acquiring and using nuclear weapons, when they have so little interest in their own survival? Mr. Tancredo is at least thinking outside the box when he suggests that Islamic terrorists might be deterred by targeting whatever it is that they DO value.

I am skeptical that this particular strategy of threatening retaliation on Mecca would actually work, but I am heartened that we have at least a few Government officials willing to flaunt political correctness in searching for ways to protect this country.

7/20/2005 12:20 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cowbou, for Al Queda the sacrifice of Mecca would be wonderful. It would make all muslims potential supporters of Al Queda. How's that for thinking "outside the box"? What a fool. This is what the real story is about the American rightwing: they are just plain stupid.

7/20/2005 11:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Carl in Atlantic City makes an extremely important point. If we get nuked, someone, somewhere is going to get it, too. Just gotta happen, kids. No way around it. How much voice would the pacifistic left have after such an occurrence?

Anonymous, who remarked on "so many morons," so little time, makes a compelling point on thinking out of the box.

So, here's some thinking out of the box: how about, if instead of kissing the ass of his buddy Vladimir, the guy who steals Super Bowl rings, our fearless prez quietly informs the boy that Russia might be target #1 if we get hit. Why is this? Well, because it will have come from Russia. We get hit by a nuke, count on it having come from Russia. Maybe with a little "encouragement," Mr. Putin might get energized about finding and securing all of those nukes—especially the little tactical ones—left lying around in Mother Russia. He might even do something about those generals and scientists who've sold off technology and probably weaponry itself.

Russia is the single greatest threat to this country. Because of their goddamned drunken carelessness, stupidity and corruption. The Commies were never that bad.

7/20/2005 6:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To those who reject retaliation against Mecca out of hand, study this excerpt from a post by Michael Calderon in Front Page Magazine's blog:

"An inarticulate comment by one slightly fringe Republican officeholder now has become the basis for numerous responsible commentators to put on their 'moderate capes' and take flight with Senators McCain and Hagel and Specter. I respectfully disagree with the notions that (a) Muslim Derangement Syndrome (MDS) is afoot in the land; (b) that those who see Islam in a crisis and therefore fear that Islam might be the problem, not “terrorism” per se are a fringe element; and (c) that Congressman Tancredo is an idiot on par with Senator Dick 'Dustbin' Durbin.

"(a) When I was on the Left prior to September 11, 2001 and gradually breaking away by October of 2001, I had feared a massive wave of anti-Muslim attacks throughout the United States. No such event happened. There may be many ignorant and ignoble characters out in the American hinterlands, but so far, they along with the overwhelming majority of Americans have exercised remarkable restraint towards Arabs and other Muslims in the States. I have seen no evidence of MDS in America. Angry letters and emails do not constitute a movement or even a threat but rather serve as a venting outlet that dissipates into the virtual reality of the email and Internet universe. When was the last time we heard of a truck bomb exploding outside an American mosque? When was the first time? When did the most recent assassination of a prominent Muslim-American imam or a radical Islamist leader take place in the States? Answer to all questions is never. MDS is a liberal Cassandra, one that I too once feared but have come to realize that it’s a leftist cheap shot aimed at most Americans.

"(b) I would not call Daniel Pipes, Robert Spencer, Steven Emerson, or Charles Johnson “fringe.” While none of them advocates nuking of Mecca, all fear that the support for one form or another of radical Islam is more pervasive in the Muslim world, particularly the Arab part, than we have been led to believe by the national leadership. Dr. Pipes estimated that between ten to thirty percent of the Muslim world supports parts of the Wahhabi-Salafist worldview. That would come out to between 110 to 330 million people. Take the smallest number and lets say that one percent of 110 million decide to wage Jihad wherever they can. That’s 110,000 Jihadi warriors. That number probably is about right in terms of the global toll of Jihadi fighters, terrorists, planners, warriors and commanders. Imagine if one percent of 110 million—the latter number is ten percent of Islam’s population—shared the Al-Qaeda vision. That’s a sizable pool of terrorists. But what if my estimation is way off, what if it is more like fifty percent of 110 million? That would come out to about 55 million Jihadis, most of them would-be Jihadis lacking the arms, means, but not the hate and will to carry out acts of Islamist terrorism. While they would never be able to muster such manpower and march off to war in the way of the Wehrmacht, the available pool of homicidal bombers, assassins, and such would be almost inexhaustible. There is no way we could ever defeat such a force spread out over several scores of nations. We cannot hold host nations accountable unless there is incontrovertible evidence that these Jihadis are state-sponsored terrorists. Thus we would find ourselves in a twilight struggle that could go on for decades. The longer it lasts, the greater the probability that the Islamists will be able to set off nukes in Europe and the United States. How many chances must Islam get to correct the defect of radical Islam? How many years are we to wait for reform? How many cities, heaven forbid, do we lose to Islam before we finally realize we are at war with Islam? Two, four, ten?

"(c) Congressman Tancredo is not an idiot but he most certainly said something better left to firebrand radio talk hosts like Michael Savage: Putting forth the threat of waging a war of annihilation against radical Islam. Here is why dropping hints or launching 'trial balloons' like Congressman Tancredo’s in the direction of established Muslim nations, media, leaders, and their holy men is not a bad idea:

· We continue to have a devil of a time trying to gain substantial, unequivocal Arab Muslim condemnation and religious edicts (fatwas) against the cult of Jihadi suicide-murder. We plea, beg, cajole and this is what we mostly get:

Moderate Muslims Split on Suicide Bombings

Jul 20, 5:24 AM (ET)

LONDON (AP) - The two meetings by Muslim leaders occurred only three days apart, one in Birmingham and one in London. Both condemned the terrorist attacks in the British capital, but they couldn’t agree on one key issue: Are suicide attacks forbidden by religious law?

The fact that one group said "yes" and the other group said "not always" could be one reason Muslim radicals sometimes succeed in recruiting disaffected young people as suicide bombers, even in Western democracies such as Britain. Some clerics argue that such strikes can be used against an occupying power - an exception that offers the radicals religious backing for their attacks.

Britain’s allegiance with the United States in Iraq has brought that debate home, even as it remains unclear what, precisely, motivated the July 7 London bombers.

"There is a very clear split between what the Islamic leaders said about whether suicide bombing is right or wrong in places such as Palestine, Kashmir or Chechnya," said Lord Nazir Ahmed, a House of Lords legislator and a well-known Muslim moderate in Britain.

· Mind you, the above piece is about moderate Muslims!
· Putting out a trial balloon with the inscription 'Mecca will melt if we’re nuked' serves notice to the behind-the-scenes-Islamists i.e. the financiers, the Saudi princes, the Pakistani ISI and military officers, the smug wealthy Arab nationalists, and those sitting on the sidelines that there are limits to our patience. Either they get off the Jihadi wagon or face responsibility for its most treasured possessions’ destruction. Even if it is pure theater, putting the nuke threat out there is a powerful psychological weapon.
· Read Gerald Posner’s latest book, Secrets of the Kingdom. The Saudi effort at curtailing internal funding and ideological-religious support for radical Wahhabism and Al-Qaeda is half-hearted and largely a public relations stunt aimed at mollifying the Bush Administration.
· Lastly, with a troubled all-volunteer force fighting the hard fight in Iraq, with looming dangers emerging in North Korea, Iran, Syria, with Chinese leaders issuing not so subtle threats at Taiwan and the U.S., with the dictator in Pakistan a car-bomb or bullet away from being replaced by radical Islamists, and now with the unprecedented appearance of Jihadi homicide bombers in Western Europe, we cannot afford being bogged down in a series of never-ending conventional wars of attrition against the Jihadis. Sooner or later, in such a scenario of ongoing conflict, the Jihadis will get a hold of a nuke, if they have not already.

"Should we lose a city and several hundred thousand, perhaps even a million or more people in an Islamist nuclear detonation, to dismiss out of hand the threat of bringing utter destruction to an indifferent Muslim world—the key word here is indifferent—is unwise. Radical Islam is playing for keeps. The sideline watchers in the Arab Muslim world are watching our commitment to Iraqi democracy—will it last beyond the Bush years? The Jihadis and their sympathetic enablers are hedging their bets that they can outlast our fickle people; they await a Hillary Clinton Presidency. Failure in Iraq means the enemy will shift his focus on Afghanistan, and using Pakistan as a sanctuary and sending Jihadis “over the top” of the Hindu Kush means that country will be re-Talibanized sometime in Mrs. Clinton’s first term. The enemy will gain momentum, the failed Arab Muslim and to some extent Southwest and Southeast Asian Muslim nations with their huge populations of child-bearing age youths will sense a tipping point is near and that it favors the long range triumph of radical Wahhabi-Salafist Islam. And what will we be doing? Congratulating ourselves that we never stooped to Muslim Derangement Syndrome."

(end of passage)

7/20/2005 9:31 PM  
Blogger Trey said...

I can't help but agree with the article by Mr. Calderon. The response from the Muslim leaders to terrorism is identical to the blind eye the Catholic church gave to the Holocaust. While Mecca isn't the ideal target, a nuclear strike from a Muslim terrorist would signal the end of religious tolerance in the world. Theocracide (did I make that word up?) would be the only end-game.

7/21/2005 10:04 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mark Madness had it half right!!!Not Mecca, but we do need to make it clear to the Muslum countries that turn a blind eye to what "thier extreamist groups" are doing...that we will retalieate BIG TIME. WAKE UP people the over riding goal of these extreamists is to compleatley DESTROY the USA.the only way to defeat these guys is to have their own country men stop them...and the only way to get that result is to assure them that we will destroy them as well....assured mutual destruction worked for 50 yrs to keep the soviets at bay..and dont think for one minute that these countries dont know whats going on...they say that they denounce the "radicals" but in truth these goverments are funding and providing a safe haven for the radicals!!! I'm sad and ashamed of some of the soft and politicly correct responces I read on these sites....what do you think would have happend if we were soft after pearl harbor?? to all you pussies who want to "try and understand" these animals..when NY & Chicago are in flames it will be YOUR fault !!!

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