When Up Is Down....
And "15%" is, well, whatever you want it to be. From this weekend's MTP:
MR. RUSSERT: You are a veteran of Vietnam, and you understand when public opinion slips away from support of a war. Here’s the latest NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll out this morning. And we asked, if Congress passes a resolution against the president’s position on more troops, should President Bush proceed? Yes, 30; no, 65 percent. Two out of three Americans, senator. And look at this breakdown by party. Democrats, 85 percent say no. Independents, voters you know well, 71 percent say no, do not proceed. And now 33 percent, one third of Republicans, say listen to Congress more than the president. Why should the American people, after they voted the midterm elections and have a Congress that says no to the president, why shouldn’t they be listened to?From the NYT, January 18, 1991:
SEN. McCAIN: Well, I understand their frustration and sometimes anger over the lack of success and lack of progress, particularly coupled with optimistic statements made time after time when things were not going well and deteriorating. At the time of the first Gulf War, only 15 percent of the American people thought we ought to go to Kuwait and get rid of Saddam Hussein there.
The initial reaction by the American public to President Bush's decision to go to war with Iraq is positive, according the Gallup Poll.I’ve been waiting to vote for McCain in a presidential election since the mid-90’s. But on the single issue (Iraq) one might have expected the perspective and wisdom of his formative life experience to matter, he’s been a reckless disaster. I’ve completely lost faith in his judgment, and the prospect of him sitting in the Oval Office gets more and more disturbing.
Seventy-nine percent of those interviewed on Wednesday night said they approved "of the U.S. decision today to go to war with Iraq in order to drive the Iraqis out of Kuwait," while 15 percent disapproved, and 6 percent had no opinion.
posted by The Cunning Realist at Sunday, January 21, 2007
54 Comments:
I'm a democrat, and I used to have faith in McCain...today he looked like a fucking pod-person on Press the Meat. What the hell has happened to him?
i don't know why either of you had any faith in mccain, whose actual track record is nowhere close to his reputational one, but congrats on wising up....
McCain would have been even worse than Bush as President. He's more hawkish and more deluded about Iraq. He's somewhere in between Cheney and Bush in terms of sanity.
McCain is so over. Kennedy looked young and with it by comparison. J.M.'s days of straight talking are far behind him.
I understand and agree. He used to be funny and shared some traits I admired about Goldwater. But he evolved precisely opposite Goldwater's evolution. Further, instead of being a leader, he's been such a Bush loyalist that it's hard to distinguish where his nose ends and where Bush's sphincter begins.
I've seen many politicians lose it in a similar way, in order to pursue higher office. But none have saddened me more than watching this one.
I think perhaps McCain sold his old "Straight Talk Express" to Chuck Hagel - who happens to be the only R I think will have any chance against a D in '08.
[T]he prospect of him sitting in the Oval Office gets more and more disturbing.
Since the rest of the country feels the same way, it also gets more and more unlikely. It would take an uncommonly good statesman and politician to win on the Dixiepub ticket in 2008, and McCain proceeds to disappoint us by proving he's neither.
He continues to get away with claiming that, because of the way Connecticut voted for Lieberman, that's evidence that the public isn't really opposed to the war.
Wow, just watched McCain on MTP. What a zombie! He's toast, has been for a long time, in my book. Nobody who supports the war at all, let alone the escalation of it, as he has since the beginning, has been a viable presidential candidate for some time now.
From Wikipedia: When the North Vietnamese discovered his father was the Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Command, (CINCPAC), commander of all U.S. forces in Vietnam, he was offered a chance to return home. McCain turned down the offer of repatriation.
This is while a captive in Hanoi. He is a fool.
Incidentally, I believe McCain is well aware of what I just postulated above, that nobody in favor of escalating the war can win in '08, and that's why he's sullen and downcast now. Bush's decision to actually adopt "the McCain Doctrine" was the nail in his coffin. Would've been fine, politically speaking, to have the "we should have escalated" rhetoric to throw around in a presidential campaign if the certain proof of its lunacy weren't about to be demonstrated for all to see. McCain knows damn well we can't win in Iraq. And he knows he's toast. Wouldn't be surprised to see him withdraw his candidacy.
Anonymous @ 1:35 AM wrote:
Bush's decision to actually adopt "the McCain Doctrine" was the nail in his coffin. Would've been fine, politically speaking, to have the "we should have escalated" rhetoric to throw around in a presidential campaign if the certain proof of its lunacy weren't about to be demonstrated for all to see.
McCain will just claim that the surge wasn't large enough, and if it had included as many troops as he wanted, we would've won.
Comte de Rochambeau said...
From Wikipedia: When the North Vietnamese discovered his father was the Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Command, (CINCPAC), commander of all U.S. forces in Vietnam, he was offered a chance to return home. McCain turned down the offer of repatriation.
This is while a captive in Hanoi. He is a fool.
No, that is a man of integrity doing the right thing, and he should be recognized for it.
That is what makes this current Doonesburyesque caricature such a tragic fall from grace.
A man of privilege not hiding behind the skirts of his father, and helping the men he was somewhat responsible for, that is a good thing and I'd like to see some emulation of that today from the Right.
Yeah, that's gonna happen.
McCain will just claim that the surge wasn't large enough, and if it had included as many troops as he wanted, we would've won.
He'll claim it, but he's smart enough to know that that excuse will go over like a lead balloon. He can't quite bring himself to give up yet, but he knows his presidential ambitions are dead.
exactly right, drocket.
Duckman GR said:
A man of privilege not hiding behind the skirts of his father...
The skirts of his father? Sounds like there's some serious back story here...
He continues to get away with claiming that, because of the way Connecticut voted for Lieberman, that's evidence that the public isn't really opposed to the war.
Really? Because that would be a complete misreading of that particular contest. Lieberman went out of his way to hide his Iraq War enthusiasm, to the extent that his campaign website didn't even mention the issue.
You should read the New Yorker article from more than a year ago to get the real picture on McCain - I too thought he wasn't so bad, but quickly was disabused of that notion. Especially with this escalation stuff, I want him nowhere near the White House...
Shouldn't the voters be listened to?
Boy, the corporate media will do anything to avoid using the word "mandate" won't they?
"McCain will just claim that the surge wasn't large enough, and if it had included as many troops as he wanted, we would've won."
True enough, and certainly his devious strategy, but any intelligent questioner should point out the utter lack of any additional troops to send.
His current intensive sucking up to the likes of Falwell and Dobson tells you everything you need to know about McCain. Either he loathes these men and is just using them (and so much for his vaunted "integrity") or he is a right wing fundamentalist nutcase. Either of those disqualifies him.
His "plan" for Iraq tells you everything else you need to know about his "strategic vision". Either he is willing to send Americans to their deaths for his own political ambitions, or he is incompetent in his judgment of military and strategic affairs.
This is what happens when you have Bill Kristol whispering in your ear.
Frankly, it's not just Iraq. If one looks back over McCain's career in the Senate, one will find an number of questionable foreign policy positions--the most prominent of which is an attack on North Korea in the 1990s.
John McCain is the last thing this country needs, both from a foreign policy and domestic policy perspective.
Sorry to break this to you, but McCain hasn't changed one Iota from the hackmtacstick, disingenuous suck up he's always been.
McCain makes Hillary Clinton look like she has principles and convictions.
My advice to the Republicans is to back somebody who actually believes in something other than tehir own ego. The Democrats stupidly went with "electablility" over our guts in 2004 and we got John Kerry.
--Hesiod
I don't think McCain is running. He was near-catatonic on "Meet the Press" yesterday. At first I thought he might be experiencing sound problems, but it was more than that. Also thought he might have been bound up in trying to control his temper. That didn't seem to be it, either. The guy is not acting like someone running for president. I think he's going to bail.
Waiting since the mid-90's to vote for Orrin Hatch 2.0?
McCain's basically just a maintenence release -- improved media interface, completely reworked biography module -- but beneath it all there's those hundreds of thousands of lines of legacy code.
McCain, like Lieberman and some others, has been in the Senate for too long. He has lost his moral center, and caters to whoever he thinks will re-elect him (in this case for President). The truth of the matter doesn't come into play in this. He also is not a "deep" thinker, although he sometimes tries to come off as one. He "caves" when the chips are down; he has aligned himself with the groups he thinks will help him to win (Bob James, even Dobson, Lieberman, Bush, etc.) He deserves to go south in the polls and ultimately to be replaced by a better Republican candidate; the void and his "brand name" celebrity status make him a front-runner. Thus far, the Republicans are having a hard time coming up with a really well-liked, well-balanced candidate, maybe because they have so many factions at war with each other.
two words for 2008:
Chuck Hagel
two words for 2008:
Chuck Hagel
Exactly. And Hagel will win. Hagel has all of McCain's military credentials, but he seems semi-sane re Iraq (more than semi-sane, to be fair). At the last minute, Americans will panic about handing the miliary and the disaster that is Iraq off to "that woman" and they will pull the lever for Hagel.
The Congress, however, will be even more dem after 2008, because the dumbass Republicans who are still in congress don't get that the shenanigans of the last six years are over. Americans have had it.
Hagel will be able to work with a democratic congress, though, so while the situation won't be anywhere near perfect, it will be vastly better than what we've had with President Chucklehead and his band of GOP perverts and thieves these last years.
My hubby has always liked McCain - and thinks he would be a competent president, much better than Bush. I was sort of neutral until the '06 election and his brown nosing with Bush. Straight Talk, not.
But I have become extremely anxious over his continued hawkish stand on Iraq - because I believe that many people (like my husband) are still thinking he is the same John McCain from the 2000 campaign. Maybe if CR can see through the new version, there is hope that the public can.
If the North Vietnamese offered McCain repatriation as a POW upon learning that his father was commander in chief of US forces in Vietnam, it is highly unlikely that he was ever mistreated or tortured by them, as is so often conveyed by our media. This is very illuminating for I have always assumed that McCain had suffered terribly. But he wasn't and in fact was probably treated with kid gloves.
I'm not trying to imply that I would have preferred if he were abused and tortured. I'm simply saying that his whole POW experience was choreographed to appear as if he was... And maybe I am a little annoyed that I've spent many sleepless nights worrying about what he may have endured throughout those years as a POW other than watching his fellow Americans get beaten up instead... If today is any indication of how McCain feels about our troops, he's obviously built up a fine resistance to putting their lives in danger.
McCain gets a pass from just about everyone in the MSM. There are many who just won't see that his obsession for the presidency has nullified all of what was once seen as good about him.
Of course when the presidential politicking gets hot and heavey he may get some more scrutiny but likely will still be somewhat fawning.
What is so "funny" is that all of his a** kissing of Bush et all and his cozying up to the religious right may not help him anyway. They don't trust him and Bush won't likely support him because of his inferriority complex. Since the GOP is still heavily controlled by the religious right and the sitting president is a lukewarm support at best (and that may be being generous), McCain is not sitting pretty in the primary race. He might have a better chance in the general election, but you have to get past primaries first. And McCain has either burned bridges or linked to bridges to nowhere - he will not likely find his welcome as generous as it was in 2000.
In the last 15 years or so, he has built a reputation for being an independent thinker who's owned by no one. Now, because he wants the presidency so much, he's kowtowing to Falwell and all the other religious zealots.
You can't say you live by principles alone and then screw the principles to get ahead. That's what he's done, and he was destined for a great fall.
I gave a good bit of money to the McCain campaign in 2000. I bought what he was selling. No more. My fondest wish is that he gets his head handed to him in the Republican primaries.
In the end, he is just another pol.
Agree, his image destruction has been notable and rapid.
I guess I should clarify that I had respect for McCain, rather than "faith" in him, as I said above. I think it was a common perception even among lefties (like me) that McCain was a straight-talking, principled man, and I guess it made me willing to overlook the differences I have with some of his views.
I don't expect that I will have 100% agreement with ANY politician, but at least I thought he was a person who could explain himself and his views in an honest way.
I have ZERO respect for him (as a politician) after watching him over these past 6 years, particularly over the past 2. I wouldn't support him for president under ANY circumstances.
(note though about his POW years...the guy can't even lift his arms over his head folks, give him a break!)
Keenie,
The problem with Mr Hagel is that the republican party would never nominate him for prez!!
Last year's Repugs would certainly not nominate Hagel, but next year's Repubs may be feeling a whole lot different, and we're right in the middle of that transition now. If they see Hagel as the one and only chance they have, they just might face reality. Not that they have shown much propensity for doing just that, but things can change quickly sometimes.
McCain, Barack ,Hillary, Jeb, it does not matter. Unfortunately it took segregationist Governor Wallace to reveal the truth that "there's not a dime's worth of difference between" Republicans and Democrats. The Democrats willingly went along with the War in Iraq, suspension of Habeas Corpus, detaining protesters, banning books like "America Deceived' from Amazon, stealing private lands (Kelo decision), warrant-less wiretapping and refusing to investigate 9/11 properly. They are both guilty of treason. Look at the bright side, when we have to vote the Democrats out, we'll have no choice but to vote for a Third Party.
Support indy media.
Last link (before Google Books bends to gov't Will and drops the title):
America Deceived (book)
SECDEF Gates said the same thing during his Senate hearing:
SEC. GATES:I remember that when President -- first President Bush made the decision to throw Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait, the polls showed about 15 percent of the American people supported that action.
SOURCE:
January 12, 2007 Friday
SECTION: CAPITOL HILL HEARING
LENGTH: 34692 words
HEADLINE: HEARING OF THE SENATE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE; SUBJECT: IRAQ; WITNESSES: ROBERT GATES, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE; PETER PACE, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF;
CHAIRED BY: SENATOR CARL LEVIN (D-MI); LOCATION: 216 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C.
Copyright 2007 Federal News Service, Inc.
(FROM LEXIS-NEXIS)
I choose to remember John McCain for his hosting gig on Saturday Night Live (truly Baldwinesque) rather than his public works.
That way I can gush about how awesome he is, and people'll be like, you don't think Senator McCain's a total sellout? And I'll be like, oh, that's right, Stoner Art Teacher Guy's in the senate! I forgot all about that!
I was able to find a 1990 Boston Globe poll that at least kinda-sorta backs up McCain on this. The headline of the article about the poll is " POLL: MOST IN US OPPOSE ALL-OUT WAR WITH IRAQ".
Here it is.
If you pay the 3 bucks for the full text of the article, you'll see it says:
"Only 9 percent of those polled said they would advocate going to war next month even if they were assured the US troops would win"
Granted, this was as of September 1990 (after Iraq had invaded Kuwait but before GHWB had actually made the decision to invade), but I don't think you can claim that McCain just made that 15 percent figure up out of whole cloth.
By the way, I am a Democrat and did not support the 2003 Iraq invasion. I just think we need to be fair here.
The current conflict has been going on for 4 years, I think the poll numbers associated with this war are based more on reality than on fear of what was unknown before the First Gulf War, so the comparison is pretty disingenuous.
The closest example of what we feared before the first Gulf War was the fate of the USSR getting bogged down in a desert war in Afghanistan. Ah, the irony.
LOST FAITH in McCain's judgment!?
I lost faith in his judgment back in the 80s, with the Keating mess! Of course, I've never been one of those Democrats who has an unholy desire to cozy up to self-described conservative Republicans.
In any case, a couple of points:
1. The 15% comment is a lie, unless and until St. John retracts it, which last I noted he hadn't;
2. McCain's zombie-like demeanor and the profound unpopularity of his view of this debacle of a war may well have already deep-sixed his chances of being elected president, or even of receiving the nomination of his benighted party.
To which I say, Hallelujah! I hope he loses his senate seat too.
--Disgusted with McCain from way back.
I was a supporter of McCain in 2000. What I have seen from him in the last 7 years has been disgusting. I can't believe I ever thought highly of him. I wouldn't let that crazy fool in my house...let alone run my country. Hell...I'd take 4 more years of Bush.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/18/AR2007011801511.html?nav=hcmodule
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20070124&articleId=4569
hedley bowles for president...the other blood loving aei/aipac minions are in the wings...
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=10399
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