Sunday, January 21, 2007

When Up Is Down....

And "15%" is, well, whatever you want it to be. From this weekend's MTP:
MR. RUSSERT: You are a veteran of Vietnam, and you understand when public opinion slips away from support of a war. Here’s the latest NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll out this morning. And we asked, if Congress passes a resolution against the president’s position on more troops, should President Bush proceed? Yes, 30; no, 65 percent. Two out of three Americans, senator. And look at this breakdown by party. Democrats, 85 percent say no. Independents, voters you know well, 71 percent say no, do not proceed. And now 33 percent, one third of Republicans, say listen to Congress more than the president. Why should the American people, after they voted the midterm elections and have a Congress that says no to the president, why shouldn’t they be listened to?

SEN. McCAIN: Well, I understand their frustration and sometimes anger over the lack of success and lack of progress, particularly coupled with optimistic statements made time after time when things were not going well and deteriorating. At the time of the first Gulf War, only 15 percent of the American people thought we ought to go to Kuwait and get rid of Saddam Hussein there.
From the NYT, January 18, 1991:
The initial reaction by the American public to President Bush's decision to go to war with Iraq is positive, according the Gallup Poll.

Seventy-nine percent of those interviewed on Wednesday night said they approved "of the U.S. decision today to go to war with Iraq in order to drive the Iraqis out of Kuwait," while 15 percent disapproved, and 6 percent had no opinion.
I’ve been waiting to vote for McCain in a presidential election since the mid-90’s. But on the single issue (Iraq) one might have expected the perspective and wisdom of his formative life experience to matter, he’s been a reckless disaster. I’ve completely lost faith in his judgment, and the prospect of him sitting in the Oval Office gets more and more disturbing.


Blogger wendyo said...

I'm a democrat, and I used to have faith in he looked like a fucking pod-person on Press the Meat. What the hell has happened to him?

1/21/2007 10:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i don't know why either of you had any faith in mccain, whose actual track record is nowhere close to his reputational one, but congrats on wising up....

1/21/2007 11:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

McCain would have been even worse than Bush as President. He's more hawkish and more deluded about Iraq. He's somewhere in between Cheney and Bush in terms of sanity.

1/22/2007 12:19 AM  
Blogger Capeman said...

McCain is so over. Kennedy looked young and with it by comparison. J.M.'s days of straight talking are far behind him.

1/22/2007 12:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I understand and agree. He used to be funny and shared some traits I admired about Goldwater. But he evolved precisely opposite Goldwater's evolution. Further, instead of being a leader, he's been such a Bush loyalist that it's hard to distinguish where his nose ends and where Bush's sphincter begins.

1/22/2007 12:36 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've seen many politicians lose it in a similar way, in order to pursue higher office. But none have saddened me more than watching this one.

I think perhaps McCain sold his old "Straight Talk Express" to Chuck Hagel - who happens to be the only R I think will have any chance against a D in '08.

1/22/2007 12:56 AM  
Blogger That guy said...

[T]he prospect of him sitting in the Oval Office gets more and more disturbing.

Since the rest of the country feels the same way, it also gets more and more unlikely. It would take an uncommonly good statesman and politician to win on the Dixiepub ticket in 2008, and McCain proceeds to disappoint us by proving he's neither.

1/22/2007 1:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

He continues to get away with claiming that, because of the way Connecticut voted for Lieberman, that's evidence that the public isn't really opposed to the war.

1/22/2007 1:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow, just watched McCain on MTP. What a zombie! He's toast, has been for a long time, in my book. Nobody who supports the war at all, let alone the escalation of it, as he has since the beginning, has been a viable presidential candidate for some time now.

1/22/2007 1:28 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

From Wikipedia: When the North Vietnamese discovered his father was the Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Command, (CINCPAC), commander of all U.S. forces in Vietnam, he was offered a chance to return home. McCain turned down the offer of repatriation.
This is while a captive in Hanoi. He is a fool.

1/22/2007 1:30 AM  
Blogger Azael said...

Yea, it was pretty damn entertaining from the democratic perspective. He projected boredom and tedium. In contrast to Kennedy, who - regardless of what you think of his ideas and analysis - at least projected enthusiasm and genuine interest in the result.

Watching McCain was like watching a guy who believed in preordained reality just catching up with his expectations.

Going to be nice not having to worry about him in 2008.

1/22/2007 1:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Incidentally, I believe McCain is well aware of what I just postulated above, that nobody in favor of escalating the war can win in '08, and that's why he's sullen and downcast now. Bush's decision to actually adopt "the McCain Doctrine" was the nail in his coffin. Would've been fine, politically speaking, to have the "we should have escalated" rhetoric to throw around in a presidential campaign if the certain proof of its lunacy weren't about to be demonstrated for all to see. McCain knows damn well we can't win in Iraq. And he knows he's toast. Wouldn't be surprised to see him withdraw his candidacy.

1/22/2007 1:35 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous @ 1:35 AM wrote:

Bush's decision to actually adopt "the McCain Doctrine" was the nail in his coffin. Would've been fine, politically speaking, to have the "we should have escalated" rhetoric to throw around in a presidential campaign if the certain proof of its lunacy weren't about to be demonstrated for all to see.

McCain will just claim that the surge wasn't large enough, and if it had included as many troops as he wanted, we would've won.

1/22/2007 1:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Comte de Rochambeau said...
From Wikipedia: When the North Vietnamese discovered his father was the Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Command, (CINCPAC), commander of all U.S. forces in Vietnam, he was offered a chance to return home. McCain turned down the offer of repatriation.
This is while a captive in Hanoi. He is a fool.

No, that is a man of integrity doing the right thing, and he should be recognized for it.

That is what makes this current Doonesburyesque caricature such a tragic fall from grace.

A man of privilege not hiding behind the skirts of his father, and helping the men he was somewhat responsible for, that is a good thing and I'd like to see some emulation of that today from the Right.

Yeah, that's gonna happen.

1/22/2007 2:59 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

McCain will just claim that the surge wasn't large enough, and if it had included as many troops as he wanted, we would've won.

He'll claim it, but he's smart enough to know that that excuse will go over like a lead balloon. He can't quite bring himself to give up yet, but he knows his presidential ambitions are dead.

1/22/2007 3:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

exactly right, drocket.

1/22/2007 4:10 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Duckman GR said:
A man of privilege not hiding behind the skirts of his father...

The skirts of his father? Sounds like there's some serious back story here...

1/22/2007 5:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

He continues to get away with claiming that, because of the way Connecticut voted for Lieberman, that's evidence that the public isn't really opposed to the war.

Really? Because that would be a complete misreading of that particular contest. Lieberman went out of his way to hide his Iraq War enthusiasm, to the extent that his campaign website didn't even mention the issue.

1/22/2007 6:52 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You should read the New Yorker article from more than a year ago to get the real picture on McCain - I too thought he wasn't so bad, but quickly was disabused of that notion. Especially with this escalation stuff, I want him nowhere near the White House...

1/22/2007 7:26 AM  
Blogger eRobin said...

Shouldn't the voters be listened to?

Boy, the corporate media will do anything to avoid using the word "mandate" won't they?

1/22/2007 7:51 AM  
Blogger creature said...

Don't miss this McCain / MTP quote also. The man is an insincere idiot.

1/22/2007 8:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"McCain will just claim that the surge wasn't large enough, and if it had included as many troops as he wanted, we would've won."

True enough, and certainly his devious strategy, but any intelligent questioner should point out the utter lack of any additional troops to send.

1/22/2007 8:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

His current intensive sucking up to the likes of Falwell and Dobson tells you everything you need to know about McCain. Either he loathes these men and is just using them (and so much for his vaunted "integrity") or he is a right wing fundamentalist nutcase. Either of those disqualifies him.

His "plan" for Iraq tells you everything else you need to know about his "strategic vision". Either he is willing to send Americans to their deaths for his own political ambitions, or he is incompetent in his judgment of military and strategic affairs.

1/22/2007 8:18 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is what happens when you have Bill Kristol whispering in your ear.

Frankly, it's not just Iraq. If one looks back over McCain's career in the Senate, one will find an number of questionable foreign policy positions--the most prominent of which is an attack on North Korea in the 1990s.

John McCain is the last thing this country needs, both from a foreign policy and domestic policy perspective.

1/22/2007 8:35 AM  
Blogger Robert Randolph said...

McCain was impressive in 2000 as the "Not Bush" candidate. He seemed to know what he believed and wasn't afraid to speak his mind.

Now, "becoming" President has taken the place of "convictions" and being a "maverick" has been replaced with sucking up to Bush and his monied backers to the extent that his head is about to implode. THAT'S why he looked so bad on "Timmy's Tomb" Sunday.

1/22/2007 8:38 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry to break this to you, but McCain hasn't changed one Iota from the hackmtacstick, disingenuous suck up he's always been.

McCain makes Hillary Clinton look like she has principles and convictions.

My advice to the Republicans is to back somebody who actually believes in something other than tehir own ego. The Democrats stupidly went with "electablility" over our guts in 2004 and we got John Kerry.


1/22/2007 8:55 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't think McCain is running. He was near-catatonic on "Meet the Press" yesterday. At first I thought he might be experiencing sound problems, but it was more than that. Also thought he might have been bound up in trying to control his temper. That didn't seem to be it, either. The guy is not acting like someone running for president. I think he's going to bail.

1/22/2007 9:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Waiting since the mid-90's to vote for Orrin Hatch 2.0?

McCain's basically just a maintenence release -- improved media interface, completely reworked biography module -- but beneath it all there's those hundreds of thousands of lines of legacy code.

1/22/2007 9:36 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

McCain, like Lieberman and some others, has been in the Senate for too long. He has lost his moral center, and caters to whoever he thinks will re-elect him (in this case for President). The truth of the matter doesn't come into play in this. He also is not a "deep" thinker, although he sometimes tries to come off as one. He "caves" when the chips are down; he has aligned himself with the groups he thinks will help him to win (Bob James, even Dobson, Lieberman, Bush, etc.) He deserves to go south in the polls and ultimately to be replaced by a better Republican candidate; the void and his "brand name" celebrity status make him a front-runner. Thus far, the Republicans are having a hard time coming up with a really well-liked, well-balanced candidate, maybe because they have so many factions at war with each other.

1/22/2007 9:56 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

two words for 2008:

Chuck Hagel

1/22/2007 10:01 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

two words for 2008:

Chuck Hagel

Exactly. And Hagel will win. Hagel has all of McCain's military credentials, but he seems semi-sane re Iraq (more than semi-sane, to be fair). At the last minute, Americans will panic about handing the miliary and the disaster that is Iraq off to "that woman" and they will pull the lever for Hagel.

The Congress, however, will be even more dem after 2008, because the dumbass Republicans who are still in congress don't get that the shenanigans of the last six years are over. Americans have had it.

Hagel will be able to work with a democratic congress, though, so while the situation won't be anywhere near perfect, it will be vastly better than what we've had with President Chucklehead and his band of GOP perverts and thieves these last years.

1/22/2007 10:08 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My hubby has always liked McCain - and thinks he would be a competent president, much better than Bush. I was sort of neutral until the '06 election and his brown nosing with Bush. Straight Talk, not.

But I have become extremely anxious over his continued hawkish stand on Iraq - because I believe that many people (like my husband) are still thinking he is the same John McCain from the 2000 campaign. Maybe if CR can see through the new version, there is hope that the public can.

1/22/2007 11:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If the North Vietnamese offered McCain repatriation as a POW upon learning that his father was commander in chief of US forces in Vietnam, it is highly unlikely that he was ever mistreated or tortured by them, as is so often conveyed by our media. This is very illuminating for I have always assumed that McCain had suffered terribly. But he wasn't and in fact was probably treated with kid gloves.

I'm not trying to imply that I would have preferred if he were abused and tortured. I'm simply saying that his whole POW experience was choreographed to appear as if he was... And maybe I am a little annoyed that I've spent many sleepless nights worrying about what he may have endured throughout those years as a POW other than watching his fellow Americans get beaten up instead... If today is any indication of how McCain feels about our troops, he's obviously built up a fine resistance to putting their lives in danger.

1/22/2007 11:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

McCain gets a pass from just about everyone in the MSM. There are many who just won't see that his obsession for the presidency has nullified all of what was once seen as good about him.

Of course when the presidential politicking gets hot and heavey he may get some more scrutiny but likely will still be somewhat fawning.

What is so "funny" is that all of his a** kissing of Bush et all and his cozying up to the religious right may not help him anyway. They don't trust him and Bush won't likely support him because of his inferriority complex. Since the GOP is still heavily controlled by the religious right and the sitting president is a lukewarm support at best (and that may be being generous), McCain is not sitting pretty in the primary race. He might have a better chance in the general election, but you have to get past primaries first. And McCain has either burned bridges or linked to bridges to nowhere - he will not likely find his welcome as generous as it was in 2000.

1/22/2007 12:51 PM  
Blogger babablacksheep said...

I don't think we should go back and question McCain's POW experience. He served his country and risked his life, and even in the rosiest scenario, being a POW for 5 and a half years is not rosy.

However, I will not forget that McCain did di the right thing and vigorously come to Kerry's defense during the disgraceful Swiftboating.

1/22/2007 2:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In the last 15 years or so, he has built a reputation for being an independent thinker who's owned by no one. Now, because he wants the presidency so much, he's kowtowing to Falwell and all the other religious zealots.

You can't say you live by principles alone and then screw the principles to get ahead. That's what he's done, and he was destined for a great fall.

I gave a good bit of money to the McCain campaign in 2000. I bought what he was selling. No more. My fondest wish is that he gets his head handed to him in the Republican primaries.

In the end, he is just another pol.

1/22/2007 2:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Agree, his image destruction has been notable and rapid.

1/22/2007 2:22 PM  
Blogger wendyo said...

I guess I should clarify that I had respect for McCain, rather than "faith" in him, as I said above. I think it was a common perception even among lefties (like me) that McCain was a straight-talking, principled man, and I guess it made me willing to overlook the differences I have with some of his views.

I don't expect that I will have 100% agreement with ANY politician, but at least I thought he was a person who could explain himself and his views in an honest way.

I have ZERO respect for him (as a politician) after watching him over these past 6 years, particularly over the past 2. I wouldn't support him for president under ANY circumstances.

(note though about his POW years...the guy can't even lift his arms over his head folks, give him a break!)

1/22/2007 2:39 PM  
Blogger The Liberal Avenger said...

Note that he said it twice during the same interview on MTP. It must be something very important for him.

It's irrelevant anyway. How did Americans feel about the first Gulf War FOUR YEARS after the fact, Senator?

When will somebody accept that WITHDRAWAL is, indeed, a valid alternative plan to the surge. When McCain or anybody else says that the Dems have no plan, I almost want to see Cheney shoot them in the face.

1/22/2007 3:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


The problem with Mr Hagel is that the republican party would never nominate him for prez!!

1/22/2007 3:45 PM  
Blogger elephty said...

I was stunned and sickened when John McCain hugged George Bush after Bush ascended to the presidency. This was after the Bush campaign claimed that McCain was a coward for not trying to escape from a North Vietnamese prison, they claimed that he had fathered a black child out of wedlock, (he and his wife adopted a black child,) and tried to make him appear to be an enabler for his drug addicted wife.

I may be wrong about this, but those claims against a person's personal life are at least cause for disgust, if not fighting words. Simply stating after the fact that it was all just politics was not credible. The right wanted George Bush as the president, and did whatever it took to get him there. It required weeks of the media spinning for Bush to con Americans into accepting that the little Texas con man, with no worldly experience, deserved to be president.

John McCain ingratiated himself to George Bush on at least one other ugly public occasion, and again nausea grabbed my gut, and I decided that not only is McCain a blatant opportunist, he does not have the character to be president. He just isn't up to the battle to restore democratic principles in the U.S.

The ability to schmooze is not a character trait I look for in "the leader of the free world." If anything people should want to schmooze him or her, and that does not happen with John McCain.

1/22/2007 4:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Last year's Repugs would certainly not nominate Hagel, but next year's Repubs may be feeling a whole lot different, and we're right in the middle of that transition now. If they see Hagel as the one and only chance they have, they just might face reality. Not that they have shown much propensity for doing just that, but things can change quickly sometimes.

1/22/2007 4:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

McCain, Barack ,Hillary, Jeb, it does not matter. Unfortunately it took segregationist Governor Wallace to reveal the truth that "there's not a dime's worth of difference between" Republicans and Democrats. The Democrats willingly went along with the War in Iraq, suspension of Habeas Corpus, detaining protesters, banning books like "America Deceived' from Amazon, stealing private lands (Kelo decision), warrant-less wiretapping and refusing to investigate 9/11 properly. They are both guilty of treason. Look at the bright side, when we have to vote the Democrats out, we'll have no choice but to vote for a Third Party.
Support indy media.
Last link (before Google Books bends to gov't Will and drops the title):
America Deceived (book)

1/22/2007 5:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

SECDEF Gates said the same thing during his Senate hearing:

SEC. GATES:I remember that when President -- first President Bush made the decision to throw Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait, the polls showed about 15 percent of the American people supported that action.

January 12, 2007 Friday
LENGTH: 34692 words
Copyright 2007 Federal News Service, Inc.

1/22/2007 8:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I choose to remember John McCain for his hosting gig on Saturday Night Live (truly Baldwinesque) rather than his public works.

That way I can gush about how awesome he is, and people'll be like, you don't think Senator McCain's a total sellout? And I'll be like, oh, that's right, Stoner Art Teacher Guy's in the senate! I forgot all about that!

1/22/2007 9:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was able to find a 1990 Boston Globe poll that at least kinda-sorta backs up McCain on this. The headline of the article about the poll is " POLL: MOST IN US OPPOSE ALL-OUT WAR WITH IRAQ".

Here it is.

If you pay the 3 bucks for the full text of the article, you'll see it says:

"Only 9 percent of those polled said they would advocate going to war next month even if they were assured the US troops would win"

Granted, this was as of September 1990 (after Iraq had invaded Kuwait but before GHWB had actually made the decision to invade), but I don't think you can claim that McCain just made that 15 percent figure up out of whole cloth.

By the way, I am a Democrat and did not support the 2003 Iraq invasion. I just think we need to be fair here.

1/22/2007 9:45 PM  
Blogger wendyo said...

The current conflict has been going on for 4 years, I think the poll numbers associated with this war are based more on reality than on fear of what was unknown before the First Gulf War, so the comparison is pretty disingenuous.

The closest example of what we feared before the first Gulf War was the fate of the USSR getting bogged down in a desert war in Afghanistan. Ah, the irony.

1/22/2007 10:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

LOST FAITH in McCain's judgment!?

I lost faith in his judgment back in the 80s, with the Keating mess! Of course, I've never been one of those Democrats who has an unholy desire to cozy up to self-described conservative Republicans.

In any case, a couple of points:

1. The 15% comment is a lie, unless and until St. John retracts it, which last I noted he hadn't;

2. McCain's zombie-like demeanor and the profound unpopularity of his view of this debacle of a war may well have already deep-sixed his chances of being elected president, or even of receiving the nomination of his benighted party.

To which I say, Hallelujah! I hope he loses his senate seat too.

--Disgusted with McCain from way back.

1/23/2007 1:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was a supporter of McCain in 2000. What I have seen from him in the last 7 years has been disgusting. I can't believe I ever thought highly of him. I wouldn't let that crazy fool in my house...let alone run my country. Hell...I'd take 4 more years of Bush.

1/23/2007 4:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

1/23/2007 7:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

1/24/2007 11:55 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

hedley bowles for president...the other blood loving aei/aipac minions are in the wings...

1/26/2007 9:03 AM  
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